Open Carry Concerns

This is a discussion on Open Carry Concerns within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Janq Nullify the person of highest potential resistance as quickly and succinctly as possible, and on the streets preferably with extreme prejudice. ...

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Thread: Open Carry Concerns

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Nullify the person of highest potential resistance as quickly and succinctly as possible, and on the streets preferably with extreme prejudice. You do the alpha ugly and all the rest will fall in line. It works and is basic in nature.
    I don't support open carry for myself, even where lawful, because life is a poker game and rarely ever is it beneficial to show ones hand.
    I respect your choice but do you have any personal experience or links to news stories? As some have pointed out there is reason to believe that many of the concerns against open carry are a simple myth. Much like the kind that the Brady Bunch creates. I am unsure so asked for evidence that the open carry concerns are based on something other than supposition. So far no one except Grady found any and those were LEO. That said as I said just because it has not happened does not mean it can't than again Tubby-45 points out it may be as likely as a satellite falling out of the sky and hit me on the head. Which why the topic is about evidence of any of the open carry concerns actually happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry. The combination of the two makes the criminal’s job that much more risky, that much more dangerous, and that much more uncertain.
    Tubby while appearing rather verbose your post is actually one of if not THE most succinct well thought out arguments for open carry I have ever read but it does almost the opposite of what I asked for which is if anyone has credible evidence against open carry like guns being taken or being the first shot etc. I'd love for your post to be another thread to hear why people open carry.

    It appears so far that the only credible evidence against open carry is the potential for negative encounters with LEO and the general public who may be unfamiliar with the law. I am still looking for evidence that the other concerns are anything other than urban myth.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Tubby while appearing rather verbose your post is actually one of if not THE most succinct well thought out arguments for open carry I have ever read but it does almost the opposite of what I asked for which is if anyone has credible evidence against open carry like guns being taken or being the first shot etc.
    There is once instance last year that was hashed out on the forums where a guy that open carried got it taken away. The situation seemed like he was in condition white with a gun. Not good juju. Other than that I haven't heard anything or seen anything.

    I'd love for your post to be another thread to hear why people open carry.
    I think my previous post got deleted and I crossed the line of open carry discussion. It was risky that I posted what I did, but I thought the benefits would outweigh the risk. I don't want to "poke the bear" and make a mod's day more difficult, so I will keep my distance from that issue.

    EDITED BY MOD: Post being mentioned was moved here: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...you-think.html

    It appears so far that the only credible evidence against open carry is the potential for negative encounters with LEO and the general public who may be unfamiliar with the law.
    The key word is exactly the issue: potential. Some simply don't want to be bothered with the "extra responsibility" (if you will) of openly carrying a firearm. If one is stopped while carrying, they don't want it to interfere with their day's itinerary.

    A lot of discussion regarding pro/con of openly carrying is about the potential for something, same as carrying concealed, keeping a spare tire and cell phone, or having proper insurance. We do it for protection in the rare instance we might need it; we choose our method on a number of factors. I don't care how one carries a gun, so long as they are armed.
    Last edited by JD; November 14th, 2008 at 11:40 AM.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    I am still looking for evidence that the other concerns are anything other than urban myth.
    http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/aprl961.txt

    FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin - March 2006 Issue

    Here's a start. Pinizotto, Miller and Davis actually have 3 reports regarding assaults/killing of LE, between 2000 and 2008 (IIRC.) If you call the FBI Publications office, and request the reports, using the authors names, they will send you free copies.

    It has been argued that LE scenarios do not apply to CC. This is not true, as violent encounters involve the same assessment, selection and initiation across the board.

    Here's the deal- OC we become as visible as (and therefore environmentally the equivalent of) LE. Our ROE are somewhat "looser" as we do not have to jump through all the hoops in "appropriate escalation of force." In that respect OC civvies are somewhat more of a risk- unless, of course, we are clearly incompetent in the handling and application and use of force. I would submit that more than a handful of licensed folks might fall into that category.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    IIRC
    I think last year here in Chantilly, VA a man was walking his dog OC'ing when a guy came up from behind him took his gun and robbed him.

    OC'ing I used to be impartial now I don't like it.

    Action beats reaction. Most people carrying open have no idea how to respond to a gun Grab by a Bad guy. Most people I see open carrying have very cheap holsters, that are open top or could easily be broken, (the old FOBUS) comes to mind. IMHO the aggregate of people who open carry don't understand the disadvantages vs. the advantages of CCW vs. Open.

    The Open carry argument has always been its not against the law. Thats fine but don't get shocked when your hassled face down and inconvienced. Remember an officer in VA has every right to secure your gun, that means taking it from you for his own personal security. If you show everybody your gun. Some idiot may call the cops, the cops may show up, and you maybe hassled, inconvienced, etc....
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    LR,

    I had stated to start; "by my own life experiences and past actions too".

    Rob I too saw that story but I'd thought the guy was in Sterling, VA (next town over...basically the same difference) and yeah the guy was out in the early AM 'walking' as I recall he stating when he was run up on by two BGs as he was open carrying. They disarmed him, smashed him upside the head with his own firearm, and left him laid out in the street with a head wound.
    They took him blind side as he reported.

    As to empirical evidence LR it will be difficult to find as much toward civilians considering the vast majority of America does not allow open carry. Even states like VA that does up until very recently would result in major problems with police if you were caught doing so even as it was technically legal.
    There is though lots and lots of such evidence throughout history toward police and security guards.

    Also on the street as was stated by Lima and B52, and again by my own direct experiences and past actions too I very much agree with their statements of first take out the big dog who shows his teeth. This happens everywhere everyday and not just toward persons who are armed with tools. Same goes toward alpha males by personality type and/or physical stature as well as perceived overall pack dynamic too. This is basic animal behavior.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Where I'm at Open carry is legal, and we are a stones throw from DC.

    However, dirty french fry vs. steack dinner analogy.

    Before the Heller decision if a Non Law abiding visitor to Arlington or Alexandria saw a gentleman walking down the street with Wilson, Sig, Glock etc.... On the streets of DC that gun maybe worth 3 times the ammount of money. Seeing you hes already got a possible meal with 400-800 dollars, not to mention for you Wilson, Nighthawk, Les Bear Carriers hes up to 2K now, Plus what might be in your wallet. Therefore the OC'er is a possible Steak dinner, with a side order of Truffles, to the criminal.

    Some CCW holders who dress in Ripped jeans and a t-shirt may seem like a dirty Mcdonald french fry to the average criminal and might not even take a second look when he sees me and says that guy "MIGHT" have $20 in his wallet he would probably be wrong because my fiance usually cleans me of all green backs the night before thats why I only carry a debit card. However, what he doesn't see is a $600 pistol, 80-$135 holster, Blackhawk Gladius $240 and a emerson Karambit $230. There a guy with less dollar value on his hip maybe percieved as a more tasty meal then a straggly looking concealed well armed person. Plus IMHO if they know your armed there is a possibility that they may need to do serious bodily harm to you to accomplish their crime. A Concealed firearm they may only use the threat of lethal force not knowing there could be a big surprise.

    However, nothings perfect and they could just stab you anyway, but to me the logic is still there.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  8. #22
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    Not one of the stories related to OC it was all officer related shooting. One after he drew his gun from concealment others in the officers home, etc. Thanks for the effort but not one about OC
    Last edited by JD; November 14th, 2008 at 11:36 AM.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post

    Not one of the stories related to OC it was all officer related shooting. One after he drew his gun from concealment others in the officers home, etc. Thanks for the effort but not one about OC
    Officers are "OC"
    As I said, you'll have to use your google-fu to find the 2006 Pinizotto/Miller/Davis report that is more relevant, or make a toll-free call to the FBI. I can scrounge around for my copy, and send you a scan, if I can find it. LMK...

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    IIRC
    I think last year here in Chantilly, VA a man was walking his dog OC'ing when a guy came up from behind him took his gun and robbed him.
    Thank you that is exactly what I was asking for. You also bring up excellent points. Anyone the does OC definitely has some additional obligations regarding equipment and awareness as well as training. Plus get a better dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    LR,
    I had stated to start; "by my own life experiences and past actions too".
    That is what I am asking for any negative experience you or anyone has had as a result of of open carrying. I am fully aware of the fact that there is potential for needless confrontation with LEO who are unaware of the laws in their state. As you know I had a gun pointed at my wife's head with a finger on the trigger and mine because of the officers ignorance, when he saw a legally carried gun in our car . Some here including at least one LEO thought that was OK to point a gun at my wife head. A State Patrol training officer on this board did not think it was OK and has since made a point of seeing his trainees do not make the same mistake and know the law. Neither did the Officers CO, who was very gracious and has given that officer some special attention. Nor was it OK with me. It took me over a week to calm down I do not take having guns pointed at he wife's head kindly It is only because I respect the law and the uniform he was wore that he is alive today. I had him dead to rights no less than six times, not counting the fact that he left the gun in the car with my wife as he turned his back escorting me to his car illegally searched me and placed me in the patrol car. I know I played him like a fiddle and he still does not know it. Six times I know I counted. Of course any personal experience you have had would be most informative and helpful

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    LR,
    Rob I too saw that story but I'd thought the guy was in Sterling, VA (next town over...basically the same difference) and yeah the guy was out in the early AM 'walking' as I recall he stating when he was run up on by two BGs as he was open carrying. They disarmed him, smashed him upside the head with his own firearm, and left him laid out in the street with a head wound.
    They took him blind side as he reported.
    Yes that is exactly what I was asking for. Obviously a perfect example of poor situational awareness and training possibly poor equipment. Lessons all of us can learn from


    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    LR,
    As to empirical evidence LR it will be difficult to find as much toward civilians considering the vast majority of America does not allow open carry. - Janq
    Actually most states do allow open carry. Only six specifically prohibit open carry two other have specific restrictions. Twelve states are what are called traditionally open carry specifically permit carry no permit licenses etc required. Eighteen others have no legal restrictions against open carry and 13 require license certification or registration As anti as the media is against carrying guns generally and openly hostile towards open carry it seems that any and all negative instances of open carry would be published far and wide. Example the story both you and Rob brought up. I surely do not think they focus only on negative concealed carry stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Also on the street as was stated by Lima and B52, and again by my own direct experiences and past actions too
    You and I interpreted Limas post very differently as I recall she stated she does open carry. That said I am looking forward to hearing your direct experiences and learning from them
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  11. #25
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    The guy in Chantilly, VA walked his dog about the same time each morning about 4 AM. He always OC'd. Can you say target? An idiot like this could CC and still have the same result. It was Chantilly in Fairfax County.

    If BGs are targeting OCers I haven't heard of it other than that one case. VA has a fair few OCers so I would think if someone was targeting them I would have heard about it through my involvement in the shooting community. You can always go to the OC website and ask the same question. They are probably a better resource on OC questions as that is their focus.
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  12. #26
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    Certainly with open carry the gun is right out there for someone to grab.

    And there is a large databank of those who open carry who have been killed with their own guns.

    They are police officers and regardless of the fact that they are police officers and the circumstances that surrounds the incident, it does happen.

    Not going into a debate on apples and oranges or things like that... Just stating a fact.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Not going into a debate on apples and oranges or things like that... Just stating a fact.
    Not looking to debate at all. Trying not to take a stance either pro or con. My question is about gathering information, so I can make a decision about this issue based on fact not assumptions or myths. I am not debating officers shot while OC are irrelevant. Although I do think it is absurd to argue that every officer that is shot is shot because they OC as some have done. I am saying that IF civilians that OC have their guns taken away there should be evidence of that. We did in fact find one story of that happening. IF those that OC are shot first during the commission of a crime there should be evidence of that. IF those that OC are more likely to have a violent confrontation there should be evidence of that. As there is evidence that some LEO and the general public sadly including many who claim to be pro 2A have irrational fear of OC and/or think it is not legal. So far we have found only one story that validate any of the concerns against OC.
    I am not advocating OC for anyone, I asked the question because I wanted to get the facts. I am sure you are aware that Brady Bunch and anti's have a tactic of creating an anti myth without any foundation in fact. They repeat it so often people begin to "assume" it is true. An example of that is the myth that we are five times more likely to be shot because we have guns. Total complete lie with no foundation in fact at all, none, zip, nadda. But how often have you heard it stated as fact. When asked for verification how often have you heard some variant of. "Well, well I know it is true so I do not have to prove it"? Sadly that is alot of what I am hearing here. Which is a stance I do not understand. One because I like to think we are above that kind of conduct. Two if we are really pro 2A why would we disparage any method of carrying a weapon? Even if we personally opt not to do so. Why would we not encourage the other guy from doing so if that is what they are comfortable with? Especially when we can not find any evidence that our negative impressions of OC are founded in fact? If they are fact why is this thread not filled with links or stories of people getting their gun taken away or being shot first during the commission of a crime or attacked because they have a gun?

    Edited to add
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    And there is a large databank of those who open carry who have been killed with their own guns.
    Can you provide me with a link or links to that database. That is exactly what I am looking for. Several internet searches have resulted in nothing
    Last edited by LongRider; July 3rd, 2008 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Edited to add
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  14. #28
    JD
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    Just bumping this as it closed due to age cut-off, this predates the opening of the OC Section, so I'm giving it another run.

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    good bumpage.

    IMO, i don't see it as an issue, the whole "getting targeted first" scenario. if a BG is looking for a target, like in a bank robbery, the last person he'll be looking for is a non uniformed citizen; they are looking for a cop, or some sort of uniformed security. in my experience, most people don't even notice the gun at first, and in crowded situations, i can walk around without garnering too much attention.

    i also will say that if you choose to carry, openly or concealed, it's important to have some sort of retention training, and maintain your situational awareness.

  16. #30
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    Walked into a Bank of America OCing once. Was asked by the guard what model Glock was it, and that was it. While in line at the bank I had a lady talking to her friend go "OMG, he's got a gun."

    In NC I can OC in a bank, you can't CC in a bank. I preceded to explain this, but she and her friend rather abruptly left the bank.

    I conducted my "Legal" withdrawal from my account and went to the range to put rounds on target.

    As an after thought, I went back to CC after I left the bank.
    "Without fear there can be no Courage!"

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