Open Carry Concerns

Open Carry Concerns

This is a discussion on Open Carry Concerns within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Regarding some other threads. I wonder how many of our concerns about open carry really happen. Does the person open carrying often get shot first? ...

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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Open Carry Concerns

    Regarding some other threads. I wonder how many of our concerns about open carry really happen. Does the person open carrying often get shot first? Do they often get their gun taken away? Anyone have links to stories or personal accounts where these things happen. Or are these just possibilities that might happen some day to some one? I don't know so I am asking.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    I've never heard of that situation. Urban myth? Mall Commando legends?
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

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    B52
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    I open carried today while shooting with friends in the Arizona desert. We wanted to make sure the illegals knew we were not to be screwed with. But I rember in my frat...Kappa Alpha... (college) days we always beat the biggest guy up first, in a bar fight. I am not condoning what we did, but most do things we regret when we were young. That is the reason I CCW in town, I don't need the unwanted attention or want to be the first taken out.

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    JD
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    Ladies and gentlemen, if you don't have anything relevant to the topic, don't post it.

    If this turns into the ever dramatic OC vs CC debate, well I think you all know what happens.

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    I have a theory, and while it's just Lima Theory therefore subject to much error, it is still a theory in need of being proven or disproven.

    My theory is that, like B52's fraternity beating up the biggest guy in a bar fight, or your bank robbers going in and taking out the security guards first, etc, it has more to do with "crowd control" than anything else.

    Part of pulling off a successful coup, whether it be to get respect, fear or money is to convince the crowd that you are a force best not reckoned with. How do you do this? Well, you go after the person/persons that people may look to for protection and/or guidance. With that person/persons gone you have instant fear and therefore crowd control.

    Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the guy with the gun is going to automatically "get it" mostly because he's not expected to be there.

    For instance, I'm planning a bank robbery (hypothetically, of course) and I know there is security (armed or not, it doesn't matter). The first order of business is to take them out and gain the fear and control of the crowd. Second order of business is to get the money and get out of there.

    People in high stress situations (yes, even criminals) experience tunnel vision. They have an objective, they go for that objective and they sometimes don't even see things they aren't worried about.

    Okay, so, I'm robbing a bank. My first objective is the security. I run in screaming for everyone to get down on the ground while I run for the guys with the white shirts and pretty belts. I knock them out and look around.. No one is standing. They are scared crapless and on the ground. Good. I have crowd control. Onto objective #2, the money. I run to the manger and/or tellers and start my withdrawal.

    I'm not looking for weapons on the civilians in the bank because that would take too much precious time. Time I don't have to waste, and as I'm experiencing tunnel vision (very likely) there could very well be a guy open carrying right to my left who just happens to be on the floor cowering like everyone else and as long as he doesn't do anything to alert my attention (like get up) I might as well not even know he exists.

    Now, let's step that down a little further to a simple convenience store robbery.

    If you have watched any of those videos on YouTube, or anywhere else for that matter, and you watched the bad guys closely you can almost SEE their tunnel vision.

    They come running in, go right to the counter, do their business and get out of there as quickly as possible.

    Often, there are other customers standing around, in a daze, that it doesn't even seem the bad guy even SEES and it very well could be that they never do see them. The customers are just standing still, scared, not knowing what to do and hoping they don't get hurt and it's over before their brain even kicks in that there was something going on.

    One of them could be EASILY open carrying a firearm and the bad guy could be none the wiser and therefore there is literally no threat to the open carrier.

    Now, let's take it even a step further and talk about random killing like in a mall shooting scenario. These shootings are random and the shooter (from what I've read and seen) doesn't give a crap whether the person is young, old, black, white, security or civilian, armed or walking their dog. His objective is simple, kill as many as possible, and it doesn't make you any more of a target to be open carrying because EVERYONE is already an equal target and, again, he may not even see that you are armed. All he sees is a person, a target, someone to take out. You are just as good as the next victim and therefore you get an equal share in his lunacy, just like everyone else.

    I have open carried quite a few times and it always amazes me how many people DON'T see that I'm armed. They can be standing in line right behind me and have absolutely no clue. Why should someone running into a store to rob it have any more awareness and ability to spot my firearm than the guy behind me in line? Just because they are committing a crime, does that make them superman and a weapons expert? Does that give them a sudden ability to home in on firearm? I don't think so.

    Now, if I'm open carrying I'm not going to be an idiot, stand up, raise my hand and say, "Ahh, Mr. Burglar. I have a gun." I'm probably going to try to conceal the fact that I am armed, even if it's just turning my gun side away from the action to lower the chance that I am seen and targeted because, though unlikely, is certainly is a possibility and that possibility should not be ignored by people who do decide to open carry.

    And even if they don't kill me they can certainly demand my disarmament and try to take my beautiful gun that I don't want to give up. So, in the interest of self preservation, I'm certainly not going to make my status as a carrier any more well known.

    Now, to address the, "You've got a gun, why don't you do something?" problem.....

    Again, unlikely. First, that would take the civilians around you actually seeing you have a gun, and as I've said, I've open carried before and the vast majority don't even see it.

    If they do and that question is voiced, one, was it spoken loud enough for the bad guy to hear it? Two, are they going to press the issue and make themselves a target by drawing unnecessary attention their way? And three, can you knock them out and shut them up? (I'm really kidding on that last point! )

    Seriously though, the question might come up but a simple, "SHHHHH!" might be all that's needed to get them to put their heads back down and shut up. They don't want to draw any more attention to themselves than you want to draw attention to yourself. If they panic and start screaming, well, then that's a whole other ball game to play and you have fun with that.

    So, in my theory's conclusion, I'm going to say that whether you are a bad guy or a good guy you are still human... right?

    I've been around guns all my life, carrying guns for years and working with guns for the last two years. I help people find holsters to conceal, I help people find guns, I write articles on concealing guns and body types and best ways to conceal. I LOOK for guns when I'm out in public and guess what.. I'VE EVEN MISSED A FEW.

    I'll be sitting next to a guy for ten minutes, he'll get up to leave and JD will say, "That was a nice Sig he was carrying."

    I'll feel like a complete idiot because I completely missed it. I could tell you his approximate hight, weight, skin and hair color and a brief description of his clothes, but somehow I missed the open carried gun, either because of the angle or my eyes just skipped over it.

    I'm not perfect and neither are you and neither are cops and neither are FBI agents and neither are TSA guys or anyone else for that matter, and that means the bad guys too.

    Chances are DARNED HIGH that they are going to skip, not just your gun, but your ENTIRE PERSON as long as you aren't their objective or in the way of that objective.

    But that's all Lima theory.

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    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Regarding some other threads. I wonder how many of our concerns about open carry really happen. Does the person open carrying often get shot first? Do they often get their gun taken away? Anyone have links to stories or personal accounts where these things happen. Or are these just possibilities that might happen some day to some one? I don't know so I am asking.
    For the most part, it's supposition, if it has happened, (regarding civilians being targeted) I haven't heard about it. As I stated in another post regarding being targeted as a result of OC.


    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post


    ...to dismiss the possibility of being targeted due to it being unlikely, is that we all ready planning on what to do if we find ourselves in an unlikely circumstance.

    We carry a gun so that in the unlikely event that we need it, we have it.

    We carry spare magazines in the unlikely event that we need more than one.

    We carry spare guns in the unlikely event that we need more than one.

    We carry knives in the unlikely event that we need to use it to fend off an attacker.

    We do all these things because there is a possibility that we may need them no matter how unlikely the circumstance.

    So while I totally understand that the presence of a gun can deter crime, I'm not going to pretend it's a force field that will keep unlikely circumstances from occuring, I am a firm believer in Muprhy's Law...

    If it can go wrong, it will.




    No matter how unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Does the person open carrying often get shot first? Do they often get their gun taken away? Anyone have links to stories or personal accounts where these things happen.
    Two instances during the same shooting. Granted, both victims were police officers, but the principle is the same: the shooter knew the officers were armed, and he shot them first before he started shooting unarmed people.

    1. The shooter approaches a police officer. They know each other because the shooter has had issues with the city before. The shooter kills the officer who is open carrying. Other news accounts state the shooter took the officer's gun and may have used it in the shootings that followed.

    2. The shooter enters a city hall meeting and immediately shoots and kills a second police officer, who was the only armed person in the room.

    The shooter then proceeds to shoot and kill others until other officers arrive and kill the shooter.

    Maybe not exact examples of what you are looking for since they were police officers open carrying, but some of the principle is the same.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/us...=1&oref=slogin

    The following is only a short excerpt from a longer article:
    Five people were fatally shot and two others wounded on Thursday evening by a man who opened fire as a City Council meeting began in Kirkwood, Mo., a generally placid suburb of St. Louis, the authorities there said. The gunman was shot to death by police.

    The violence began about 7 p.m., when the man approached a Kirkwood police officer in a parking lot near the police station and shot and killed the officer, a spokeswoman for the St. Louis County police, Tracy Panus, said late Thursday.

    Moments later, the man appeared inside City Hall, a short walk from the Police Department, shot and killed another police officer and then fatally shot three city officials who were inside the council meeting, officials said. Two others at the meeting were also shot and wounded, one critically, Ms. Panus said.

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    B52
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    Great points Lima!

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    It really boils down how you carry your weapon vs. how you carry your weapon. There are at least three studies I know of regarding on offender selection processes when choosing to assault an officer. OC puts us in the same category as LE, vis-a-vis a visible threat to BGs. Of course, we don't have Motorola, and 50 of our best buddies won't be cruising for the BG if we get assaulted, either...

    If we are not situationally aware, if we look like food, if we tuck our heads in the cabin of the car as we strap a kid in a carseat and leave a hip-n-gun hanging in the open... it's an invitation. You become a high value target, if the BG feels he/she can control you.

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    I've told my girlfriend that OC wouldn't be the worst option for her while she's out hiking or walking by herself. Yesterday, we were riding our horses in a local state park (OC is legal in state parks where we are) and I saw another girl OC a small revolver. My girlfriend didn't notice until I asked the other girl if it was a .38. I was CC this time but have OC'd there a few times. Anyway, to my point; If I was a bad guy sizing up ladies to take advantage of in a park (which seems to happen often enough), I'd say most perps are going to look at her as too much trouble and move on to an easier target. Obviously, we can debate all day long if the perp would go straight for the gun, but I think most criminals in this situation would be looking for targets of easy opportunity.

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    Senior Member Array luvmyglock's Avatar
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    Great post Lima! You should talk with my wife...you guys have very similar thought processes. She is armriley on DC.

    TinkerinWstuff,
    Good post, and certainly a point to be discussed. I think, though, that as much as carrying the weapon, the woman has to look confident, or that she can handle the weapon. If she looks uncomfortable, or unaware of her surroundings, she may become a bigger target (BG thinks he can get his victim AND a gun out of the deal). Sometimes the look of a confident woman can be scarier than the gun!
    EVIL PREVAILS WHEN GOOD MEN FAIL TO ACT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    I've never heard of that situation. Urban myth? Mall Commando legends?
    That is kind of my impression, but I rather not assume as I have been known to be wr, wro... wron.... mistaken before so thought if anyone knew of it happening, it would be helpful in making an informed decision. As JD pointed out regardless if it has happened or not, likely or not the possibility does need to be taken into consideration no doubt. What I hate to see happen is if we do the same kind of thing the Brady bunch does and take something that could happen or is possible and present it as a fact as something that does happen without evidence to verify it. Especially when we are talking about eliminating a method of carry. As that plays right into their hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen, if you don't have anything relevant to the topic, don't post it.
    If this turns into the ever dramatic OC vs CC debate, well I think you all know what happens.
    Thanks that is exactly where I did not want to go. I agree with your next post that just because we can not find evidence of it happening does not mean it can't or won't. There are inherent risks in any method of carry and need to take those into consideration but I do not want to avoid a method of carry simply because an unlikely event may occur. If I did than I would not carry at all based on all the possible things the Brady bunch claims could go wrong. Rather I want to be aware of the risks and act accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I have a theory, and while it's just Lima Theory therefore subject to much error, it is still a theory in need of being proven or disproven.
    Thanks, I think it is a valid theory and one of the reasons I am asking. It does seem that if thugs are prone to see and act against those that OC there would be some evidence of it in the media some where as hostile as they are to guns especially OC.


    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    Two instances during the same shooting. Granted, both victims were police officers, but the principle is the same: the shooter knew the officers were armed, and he shot them first before he started shooting unarmed people.
    Excellent Grady exactly what I was looking for verifiable incidents. Though both were LEO as you said and the first does look like a hit on that specific officer. Generally speaking I do not think officer shootings are part of the open carry vs concealed carry issue. But the second I think is may have a more valid connection but he question does kind of remain was he shooting at the LEO because he was a LEO. So the perp knew to look for him, but as a civilian may have been over looked based on Lima's OC theory? That is why I am asking if we can find any evidence of our OC concerns actually happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    You become a high value target, if the BG feels he/she can control you.
    I kind of get that and don't but my response really is another topic. What I am looking for is evidence that it does or has happened. So far based on this thread apparently not
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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    Senior Member Array luvmyglock's Avatar
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    A GREAT resource for all of your Open Carry questions is OCDO. They have all the information that you would want over there, as well as state-specific forums. I am luvmyglock over there as well. We just really aren't geared towards open carry as much over here. Good luck!
    EVIL PREVAILS WHEN GOOD MEN FAIL TO ACT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Though both were LEO as you said and the first does look like a hit on that specific officer. Generally speaking I do not think officer shootings are part of the open carry vs concealed carry issue. But the second I think is may have a more valid connection but he question does kind of remain was he shooting at the LEO because he was a LEO. So the perp knew to look for him, but as a civilian may have been over looked based on Lima's OC theory? That is why I am asking if we can find any evidence of our OC concerns actually happening.
    Yes, the LEO's are not a perfect example of someone OCing. And it was a surprise attack on the first LEO. According to what I read and heard, the first LEO knew the shooter on a first-name basis. They had interacted before, and the officer was caught off-guard by the shooter.

    To perhaps answer some of your questions, I'll give more detail. The shooter had been in many city hall meetings, and had at one point been thrown out due to his conduct. So he likely knew an officer would be in the meeting. He apparently knew many police by sight and name due to a long-running dispute with the city. According to media reports, he had been loud and boisterous before, but not violent.

    In this instance, had he known anyone else carried a weapon, my guess is he would have gone after them also. But that is only conjecture: no weapons other than LEO's were allowed in the meeting. Another point of conjecture is that if such a shooter was not familiar with those attending the meeting, someone OCing probably would not have been targeted first because the weapon might have been out of sight as they sat behind desks, tables, etc.

    I realize this isn't a good example of what you are looking for, but I thought it might have some common points. As far as a non-LEO being targeted because of OC, I haven't heard of it.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed with B52 and Lima, by my own life experiences and past actions too.

    Nullify the person of highest potential resistance as quickly and succinctly as possible, and on the streets preferably with extreme prejudice. You do the alpha ugly and all the rest will fall in line. It works and is basic in nature.

    I don't support open carry for myself, even where lawful, because life is a poker game and rarely ever is it beneficial to show ones hand.

    - 'The Gambler'
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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