Open Carry and the police - Page 2

Open Carry and the police

This is a discussion on Open Carry and the police within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Metro 40 For those not familiar with police jargon, "felony stop" is simply a term used to describe the taking into custody ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro 40 View Post
    For those not familiar with police jargon, "felony stop" is simply a term used to describe the taking into custody of a person at gunpoint, with the suspect being given verbal commands* by the officers until he/she is safely restrained and disarmed. It really has nothing to do with a felony, per se, but is a technique used by the police when taking known felons into custody when there may be a danger of armed resistance.

    Most police departments have gotten away from the term "felony stop," and instead use the term "high-risk stop." .... It doesn't mean you committed a felony, it's just jargon.
    *Emphas added


    Verbal commands followed by the use-of-force needed to produce compliance i.e., if you don't comply quick enough, escalating force (including physical hands-on, batons, Asps, gas, taser, etc) is used until the Officers feel safe. (To the best of my knowledge -- usually requiring the officers to file a Use-of-Force Report.)
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Verbal commands followed by the use-of-force needed to produce compliance i.e., if you don't comply quick enough, escalating force
    So, what you are saying is that it is best to comply with a police officer's verbal commands and work out your differences in court at a later time.

    Good advice!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    So, what you are saying is that it is best to comply with a police officer's verbal commands and work out your differences in court at a later time.

    Good advice!
    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

    If it's a "felony stop", you bet'ch, Red Rider.
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  4. #19
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    We still use the term "felony stop" in my part of the world.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    No permit required to open carry in Michigan, until you get into your car. Then it's considered to be concealed from that point on. Also, having a concealed pistol license exempts open carriers from all the open carry pistol free zones. (A list that is nearly identical to CCW PFZ's)

  6. #21
    Member Array chuck brick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro 40 View Post
    For those not familiar with police jargon, "felony stop" is simply a term used to describe the taking into custody of a person at gunpoint, with the suspect being given verbal commands by the officers until he/she is safely restrained and disarmed. It really has nothing to do with a felony, per se, but is a technique used by the police when taking known felons into custody when there may be a danger of armed resistance.

    Most police departments have gotten away from the term "felony stop," and instead use the term "high-risk stop." Obviously, not every felon needs to be taken into custody at gunpoint, as there are a lot of non-violent felonies on the books. Old habits die hard, though, so you'll still hear the term "felony stop" a lot. It doesn't mean you committed a felony, it's just jargon.
    That's about what I thought, but I thank you for clarifying further. That means to me that (like everywhere else I've ever been) the local police (and even the State police) frequently don't know any more about state/local laws than the average citizen. Although it's rather disappointing that more LEO's don't take a deeper personal interest in the laws they are expected to enforce, I also think it's a failure that the departments don't make more effort to educate them. It's one thing to confront someone in violation of a law (even jay-walking), but it should never be acceptable to accost a law-abiding citizen because of ignorance. If "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" for the citizenry, why should it be for those that earn their living enforcing it?
    I'm not on a tear against LEO's; I know they're made of meat just like the rest of us. I just believe that, given their chosen carreer field, they should feel obligated, indeed should be obligated, to be more knowledgeable than the average person. I know I've been stopped for a non-issue before, and only avoided arrest because I quoted the complete law word for word, and overwhelmed the cop that was trying to make it an issue. (FWIW - It was only a small belt-knife that I've carried for years.)

    (I guess it's fortunate I'm not strongly opinionated )

    Stay safe,

    Chuck Brick.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    He said felony stop, not arrested/charged.
    But any time an officer of the law stops you in VA is considered an "arrest". You may be let go, summoned to appear, or charged and booked.

    I OC'd before I got my CHP, but I have been OC'ing much more as of late. I'm not going to let discrimination against OC'ers prevent me from doing so.
    Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
    -Horace

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    But any time an officer of the law stops you in VA is considered an "arrest". You may be let go, summoned to appear, or charged and booked.
    You might want to check you source on that.

    Case law, rather than statute, lays out that there are consensual interviews, brief investigatory detentions (a.k.a. Terry Stops), and Arrests (or apprehension).
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck brick View Post
    That's about what I thought, but I thank you for clarifying further. That means to me that (like everywhere else I've ever been) the local police (and even the State police) frequently don't know any more about state/local laws than the average citizen. Although it's rather disappointing that more LEO's don't take a deeper personal interest in the laws they are expected to enforce, I also think it's a failure that the departments don't make more effort to educate them. It's one thing to confront someone in violation of a law (even jay-walking), but it should never be acceptable to accost a law-abiding citizen because of ignorance. If "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" for the citizenry, why should it be for those that earn their living enforcing it?
    I'm not on a tear against LEO's; I know they're made of meat just like the rest of us. I just believe that, given their chosen carreer field, they should feel obligated, indeed should be obligated, to be more knowledgeable than the average person. I know I've been stopped for a non-issue before, and only avoided arrest because I quoted the complete law word for word, and overwhelmed the cop that was trying to make it an issue. (FWIW - It was only a small belt-knife that I've carried for years.)

    (I guess it's fortunate I'm not strongly opinionated )

    Stay safe,

    Chuck Brick.
    I bet that most of them are far more knowledgeable about "the law" than you or the average citizen, but it just so happens that you have a great deal of interest in this particular topic, so you do know more about the laws in this particular very narrow scope of interest.

    Anyway, I think I'm going to do an experiment and post my findings here, since there seems to be a lot of interest and fear about open carry, and I'm not a fan of OC for a lot of reasons. Maybe I can prove my own theories wrong.

    I'm going to pick a week this summer, and open carry all day everyday. To the grocery, to Home Depot, Walmart where ever. OC is legal in Ohio, plus I am a LEO so I am safe in doing so from a legal perspective.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #25
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm going to pick a week this summer, and open carry all day everyday. To the grocery, to Home Depot, Walmart where ever. OC is legal in Ohio, plus I am a LEO so I am safe in doing so from a legal perspective.
    Let us know.

    OTOH, it might be a biased sample. I get very little reaction most of the time. However, when I'm with my son (high & tight hair, hulk, OCing a very service looking S&W in a triple-retention holster, and extruding the LEO he is) and some of his fellow officers, no one pay any attention to the bearded old fart OCing. We have even been to a couple restaurants that have no posted sign, but normally ask armed folk to leave, w/o incident.

    If you look rather LEOish, or are planning to do it where you are well known, you might get a different response than if you try it on vacation somewhere else w/ a few days of beard and very casual wear, w/ a non-typically issued sidearm (a silver colored wheel gun, a custom 1911 locked & loaded, a SIG 220 SAS, etc) OC'ed in a light brown leather OWB.

    But, please let us know how it went.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  11. #26
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    I'm fresh out of narcotics investigation, I've cleaned up a lot, but I'm still not the typical LEO cut out. I look more like I should be riding around on a surfboard rather than a cruiser.
    I'll purposely choose a 1911 or perhaps a Kahr to not give the "duty gun" look. I'll also use a plain leather holster, maybe something simple from Hume or Galco.

    FWIW, I am very much not for O/C, I think its a bad idea for a few reasons... but I'm willing to give it a whirl.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm fresh out of narcotics investigation, I've cleaned up a lot, but I'm still not the typical LEO cut out. I look more like I should be riding around on a surfboard rather than a cruiser.
    I'll purposely choose a 1911 or perhaps a Kahr to not give the "duty gun" look. I'll also use a plain leather holster, maybe something simple from Hume or Galco.

    FWIW, I am very much not for O/C, I think its a bad idea for a few reasons... but I'm willing to give it a whirl.
    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

    Sounds good.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    You might want to check you source on that.

    Case law, rather than statute, lays out that there are consensual interviews, brief investigatory detentions (a.k.a. Terry Stops), and Arrests (or apprehension).
    Several VSP officers on different occasions. Any kind of traffic stop is considered an "arrest". Walking around is another story. A "stop", to me, is when a person is in his or her car. A cop walking up to a person is more of an "interview".
    Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
    -Horace

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm fresh out of narcotics investigation, I've cleaned up a lot, but I'm still not the typical LEO cut out. I look more like I should be riding around on a surfboard rather than a cruiser.
    I'll purposely choose a 1911 or perhaps a Kahr to not give the "duty gun" look. I'll also use a plain leather holster, maybe something simple from Hume or Galco.

    FWIW, I am very much not for O/C, I think its a bad idea for a few reasons... but I'm willing to give it a whirl.
    To really test it you need to Mexican carry (in front waist band) a Taurus 85 with duct tape wrapped around the grip and trigger.

    Plus don't bath or change clothes for a few days, see what type of reactions you get
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array tankdriver's Avatar
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    TN is a "Carry Permit", not concealed permit. However I am a big proponent id concealed carry. BUT I carry this letter in my wallet just in case. It is an opinion from the State Attorney General.

    S T A T E O F T E N N E S S E E
    OFFICE OF THE
    ATTORNEY GENERAL
    PO BOX 20207
    NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37202
    October 11, 2005
    Opinion No. 05-154
    Civilian Handgun Permits
    QUESTIONS

    1. Does Tennessee law require that individuals who have been issued civilian handgun
    permits under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 carry the handgun(s) concealed?

    2. If Tennessee law does not require concealment of a handgun by a civilian handgun
    permit holder, may a law enforcement officer legally arrest an individual for carrying a handgun
    openly in Tennessee if the individual is not carrying it in a prohibited location (e.g., courtroom)?

    3. May a law enforcement officer legally seize a handgun carry permit from an
    individual when that individual is arrested or charged with a crime?

    OPINIONS

    1. No. Neither Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351, nor any other statute governing the
    carrying of firearms, requires the holder of a handgun carry permit to carry the handgun in a
    concealed manner.

    2. Yes. A handgun carry permit holder may be arrested for carrying a handgun openly
    if he or she is using the handgun to commit a crime, or is otherwise engaged in criminal activity
    while carrying the handgun.

    3. No. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1352(c) states that a law enforcement officer may only
    seize a handgun carry permit when directed to do so by the Department of Safety.

    ANALYSIS

    1. The primary objective of statutory construction is to ascertain legislative intent. If
    the language of the statute is clear and unambiguous, courts are supposed to ascertain that intent
    from the plain and ordinary meaning of the language. Honsa v. Tombigbee Transport Corp., 141
    S.W.3d 540 (Tenn. 2004).
    The plain meaning of the statutes governing, or prohibiting, the carrying of handguns and
    other weapons indicates that, in situations where the legislature has permitted the carrying of

    1 Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 sets forth the requirements that must be satisfied for the issuance of
    a carry permit to a citizen of this state. It also sets forth the requirements for honoring permits issued by other states
    on the basis of reciprocity. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(r). The grounds under which a police officer may hold
    and/or seize a handgun in the possession of a permit holder are listed in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(t). The statute,
    however, is silent on whether a permit holder may carry a handgun openly.
    Other statutes which address the carrying of handguns and other firearms are also silent on the issue. Tenn.
    Code Ann. § 39-17-1307, which prohibits the carrying of weapons for purposes of going armed, makes no distinction
    between weapons carried openly and those which are carried concealed. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1308(a)(2) states
    that possession of a handgun carry permit is a defense to a charge of carrying a weapon for purposes of going armed,
    but does not specify whether the handgun must be concealed or carried openly.

    2 In the past, he General Assembly has imposed specific requirements concerning the carrying of
    firearms in public. The former statute prohibiting the carrying or possession of firearms, Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-6-1701
    (repealed Acts 1989, c. 591 §1) stated, in pertinent part:
    Any person who shall carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed
    . . . any pistol or revolver of any kind whatever, except the army or navy pistol
    which shall be carried openly in the hand, or any other dangerous weapon, shall be
    guilty of a misdemeanor.

    3 A permit holder may not carry a handgun, either openly or concealed, in areas where the legislature
    has expressly prohibited it, such as where alcoholic beverages are served (Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1305), during
    judicial proceedings (Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1306), on the grounds of any public or private school (Tenn. Code Ann.
    § 39-17-1309), in public parks, playgrounds, civic centers, and other public recreational buildings and grounds (Tenn.
    Code Ann. § 39-17-1311), or where an individual, corporation, business entity, or local, state, or federal government
    entity has prohibited the possession of a weapon under the provisions of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359.

    4 Under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1308(a)(2), possession of a handgun permit is a defense to the crime
    of carrying a weapon for the purpose of going armed.
    handguns, the legislature intended to authorize the carrying of handguns both openly and concealed.

    The statutes governing the wearing and carrying of firearms neither expressly prohibit the permit
    holder from carrying a handgun openly, nor expressly require the permit holder to carry the
    handgun concealed.

    1. Reading Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 in pari materia with §§ 39-17-1307 and 1308(a)(2)
    indicates that the legislature intended to allow carry permit holders to carry their handguns both
    openly and concealed. If the legislature had intended to require a permit holder to carry his or her
    handgun concealed, it would have done so by prohibiting the open carrying of a handgun and
    expressly requiring the concealed carry of a handgun.

    2. As set forth in part 1, above, the holder of a handgun carry permit may lawfully carry his
    or her handgun both openly and concealed.3 Therefore, a permit holder should not be subject to
    arrest solely because the handgun is being carried openly. There is nothing, however, in any of the
    statutes cited in part 1 that would prohibit the arrest of a handgun permit holder for other crimes.4

    3. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1352(c) is the only statute which authorizes law
    enforcement officers to seize handgun carry permits. It allows law enforcement officers to seize
    permits only at the direction of the Department of Safety, after a permit has been suspended or
    revoked. There are no statutes authorizing a law enforcement officer to seize a handgun carry permit
    under any other circumstances.
    Under rules of statutory construction, the expression of one thing implies the exclusion of
    others. State v. Adler, 92 S.W.3d 397 (Tenn. 2002). The failure to authorize law enforcement
    officers to seize permits, except under the narrow grant of authority in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-
    1352(c), indicates that the legislature did not intend to authorize law enforcement officers to seize
    handgun carry permits except at the direction of the Department of Safety, pursuant to Tenn. Code
    Ann. § 39-17-1352(c).


    PAUL G. SUMMERS
    Attorney General
    MICHAEL E. MOORE
    Solicitor General
    LIZABETH A. HALE
    Assistant Attorney General
    Requested by:
    Hon. Ben West, Jr.
    State Representative
    Suite 37, Legislative Plaza
    Nashville, TN 37243
    1942 M3 Autocar Half-track...M3A1 Diamond T Half-track...57mm Anti-Tank Cannon

    NRA Endowment Member...President West TN Military Vehicle Collectors...MVPA Member

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