Anti Open Carry Article in Michigan State University Newspaper - Page 3

Anti Open Carry Article in Michigan State University Newspaper

This is a discussion on Anti Open Carry Article in Michigan State University Newspaper within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What right is there to force someone else to agree with your view? None whatsoever. That goes both ways. I have no problem with the ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    What right is there to force someone else to agree with your view?
    None whatsoever. That goes both ways.

    I have no problem with the 'right' of two men holding hands and kissing. I don't want to be educated about their 'right' and having my children see that behavior.
    Such folks are just living. Doing something in public view isn't forcing anything on anyone, least of all forcing anyone to agree with the point of view or activity.

    And yet, that public activity exists and is seen, hence it has the potential to educate those who would see. As with carrying a firearm, what one has the opportunity to see is the simple fact that peaceable folks carrying are not materially different from other peaceable folks. In the same way in which one couple expressing their affection isn't materially different than another.

    Public activity of this nature isn't forcing anyone to do anything. It's merely living. It's also disallowing that anyone else has the right to force such things to not be done, to be seen as baaaaaaad, to be branded illegal.

    That's a strong underlying point the article makes, though I doubt it was the intention of the authors.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  2. #32
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    An anti gun police chief wants to stifle a something that is legal because he doesn't like it. Sound familiar ?
    How was he trying to stifle something that was legal? It certainly didn't sound as if anyone was arrested in this incident. The sheriff has every right to express his view, no?

    If am engaging in a legal activity, I don't really care what someone thinks.
    Exactly. That is the problem.

    If they are offended then they can try to change it like the rest of us. Ted Kennedy thinks that all guns should be outlawed. Am I to respect the wishes of a wacko senator because he is offended that I have a means of protection and just disregard the fact that it's legal?
    You should respect his right to promote his own views, no matter how distasteful or anti Constitutional.

    Ain't happening. You got to know where to draw the line. The Sheriff in question offended those men by making some rash statements. Why is OK to offend them, but if they counter some are offended.
    Again, it is a matter of mature behavior. If the sheriff acted poorly that does not excuse someone else's bad behavior. Yes, offending others is bad behavior and though sometimes necessary, should not be condoned. In this case, the sheriff offending the men does not give license for them to offend the public. A better course would have been to write a letter to his boss, or if an elected position, to support a new sheriff and promote his campaign. That is positive. Making a scene is negative.

    It doesn't make sense, but much of what liberals think donut.
    Donut! Sorry, it just seemed funny to me.

    Same ole tired liberal thought process.
    I've been accused of a lot of things, but having a liberal thought process was never one of them.

    I just think the tactics used by these open carry demonstrations hurt our cause and encourage the to more actively seek gun control laws. There are far better ways to educate the public than to, as someone else wrote, 'to rub their noses in it.'

    I respectfully dissent.

  3. #33
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    I just think the tactics used by these open carry demonstrations hurt our cause and encourage the(sheep) to more actively seek gun control laws.
    Thats part of the problem. Why would anyone want to seek more gun control laws for something that is legal?
    Why pass another law?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  4. #34
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    I'm not really pro-open carry, but I am definitely against individual officers, departments, or even cities deciding that because they don't like something, they find a way to punish someone that does it, even if the activity is legal.
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  5. #35
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    I prefer Conceal carrying...but

    Open carry is a RIGHT in most states whereas conceal carry is PERMITTED (which means it can be revoked).

    While i don't OC much, i respect what OpenCarry does and support them 100%
    Let's Roll - Todd Beamer

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  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    SelfDefense - I say, well said!
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

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  7. #37
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    I've carried concealed since 1996.

    I used to accept the rationale that CC gives me the advantage of surprise in case of an attack.

    But I find myself swayed by the OC arguments. CC is darned uncomfortable, and the advantage of carrying openly allows quicker deployment and a larger weapon.

    While CC means I have a SURPRISE under my jacket, it means that a potential bad guy may mistake me for food, and decide to take me on. The advantage of my concealed weapon is offset by the higher liklihood of being targeted as a victim.

    There are many places where open carry is prohibitively impractical, and could result in a prompt eveiction from a shopping mall, or loss of a job.

    Here in NM CC in a package goods store was made legal just last year, but OC is still a 4th degree felony.

    But after a number of years of carrying concealed, I am just fed up with the attitude (sustained by plenty of concealed carry folks) that carrying a weapon is a filthy activity which I should be ashamed of, and which should never be exposed to anyone outside the armed community.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Yes, some people are scared of armed citizens. It is no one's duty or responsibility to 'educate' those who prefer to live their lives in the manner they choose.
    Some people are scared of Mexicans, Blacks, And males between 14 and 25....

    This does not mean their fear is in all cases unjustified, nor does it mean that all "suspect people" are obligated to slink off into the shadows so they don't "scare folks".

    It's a big world, and people need to manage their own fears and when justified, manage their own protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post

    Exactly. Some people simply do not want to see open carry. And when those involved cannnot even artculate the self defense reason for carrying, as the author writes, then it is shameful. Just because something is legal does not mean it is the right thing to do. And to do it simply because it is legal is immature. Consideration of others is a valuable trait.
    I'm not clear of your point.

    Do I need to carry around FBI reports and local crime statistics
    to articulate my justification for carrying a firearm?

    Wave them provocatively in people's faces when they flip out on me? Wasn't your whole objection that OC people are being "provocative"?

    To anyone who even occasionally watches the 10 PM news or reads a newspaper the reasons for self defense are obvious.

    AZ and NM have ALWAYS recognized the right to openly carry a firearm. It is a point in the NM constitution and (I believe) also in the AZ constitution.

    It has fallen out of fashion, but that makes the exercise of this right MORE, not less important.

    My PRIVILIGE to carry concealed requires me to ask the permission from the State. My RIGHT to carry openly is mandated by the NM constitution. I will exercise it as I see fit, and I will fight HARD any interference by law enforcement to restrict it unlawfully.

    If you find my rights to be offensive, look at yourself.

  8. #38
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    How was he trying to stifle something that was legal? It certainly didn't sound as if anyone was arrested in this incident. The sheriff has every right to express his view, no?
    No. The Sheriff can speak to matters of law, and crime. When it comes his disapproval of law-abiding citizens engaged in lawful activity he has the right to shut his piehole, and write his state representative if he doesn't like it.




    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Exactly. That is the problem.

    You should respect his right to promote his own views, no matter how distasteful or anti Constitutional.
    Someone wants to get up in my business for legal, AND CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED activity, he'll get plenty of flack back. His right to speak his mind does not mean I have an obligation to give way.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Again, it is a matter of mature behavior. If the sheriff acted poorly that does not excuse someone else's bad behavior. Yes, offending others is bad behavior and though sometimes necessary, should not be condoned. In this case, the sheriff offending the men does not give license for them to offend the public. A better course would have been to write a letter to his boss, or if an elected position, to support a new sheriff and promote his campaign. That is positive. Making a scene is negative.

    "Offending the public"? Is that in the criminal code? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I just think the tactics used by these open carry demonstrations hurt our cause and encourage the to more actively seek gun control laws. There are far better ways to educate the public than to, as someone else wrote, 'to rub their noses in it.'

    I respectfully dissent.
    I dissent as well. I think it is even more sheepish to self censor, to refrain from lawful behavior because SOMEbody out there might get afraid and offended.

    I am too old to get worked up about offending people, because I find I offend people by my age, by my livelihood, by my color, by my gender, by my sexual habits, by my politics and by about a hundred other things which I cannot or will not change. I find I offend people simply by existing. And they often tell me about it.

    If I happen to do some normal, not protesting type thing while openly carrying, some may see that as provocative, some may choose to interpret that as "sending a message".

    I see it as just minding my own business, and obeying the law.

    If someone wants to make it a fight, that is their doing.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    That can be argued all day long with no one being able to change the mind of the other. And your quote here was exactly the point of the article. Why does your right to protect yourself trump their right "feel safe". The article didn't trash CC and basically said keep it covered so you don't scare the sheep.
    Umm lets see because

    FEELINGS ARE NOT FACTS

    LIFE AND DEATH ARE FACTS


    There is nothing real about an irrational fear of guns other than evidence of emotional immaturity.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
    ("General Introduction to Psychoanalysis," S. Freud)
    The pansies with puddin in their drawers need to get a grip and grow up. To long has this nation sunk down to the lowest common denominator so the that the weakest lamest stupidest can all feel a part of . Well the fact is they are not a part of and would be victims of Darwin's law except that affirmative action and welfare has made it possible for the most useless non productive parasitical bipeds in the nation to breed without restraint. Now they think it is their right to rule this nation guided by their emotions and a fantasy of the way the world should be. I could care less how anyone feels my right to live free of harm from others will always supersede anyones feelings. That too is a FACT not a feeling
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  10. #40
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    Have posted most of this on another thread and now on statenews site
    Oh My God these people want to turn that town into the wild west when everyone was packing heat on their hip. How insane is it to want to go back to a time when everyone had guns and there was far fewer per capita assaults with deadly weapons, fewer per capita murders, fewer per capita robberies, fewer per capita rapes? A time of less crime. Is that really insane?
    My thought is that open carry is not about gaining favor some new mode of carry or establishing a new tradition. Rather it is about taking back ground we have lost. There was a time not so long ago when open carry was not frowned upon any more than we frown upon giggling pubescent girls and testosterone driven males operating two ton weapons of mass destruction because open carry was just as common as teenage drivers are today. It was a given that most people open carrying were average normal law abiding citizens because they were. My thought is because out of politeness and consideration for the sensibilities of others, fewer per capita gun owners carried openly two things have resulted. One the anti self defense fanatics have taken a kindness as a weakness and now expect that we bow down to their unreasonable fears. What was once a courtesy is now an expectation. Even the courts have ruled that the fear reaction is unreasonable. Two because it is now an uncommon sight many including those of us who carry misinterpret the motives of those that open carry. Often alarmed by what was once a commonly accepted practice. In effect by not openly carrying we encourage some of the negative fear responses to all gun carry. So, my thought is if more people openly carried it would once again become a common sight and in time generate more acceptance of all kinds of carry
    Ladies and gentlemen to often is the Constitution cited as giving us the right to bear arms. That is not the case rather it is God or nature if you prefer that has granted us life and the inalienable right to defend that life. The Constitution simply protects that right, as has the Supreme Court. People that carry guns are the same people who have always carried guns in this nation as a whole law abiding men and women who have accepted the responsibility for their own well being and safety. After all who does that responsibility fall on? Not the police. The supreme court has repeatedly ruled that the police are under no obligation to assure anyones safety or well being. It is their job to enforce the law to apprehend the criminal AFTER they have committed a crime. The police's job begins after you have been raped robber maimed or murdered. Not before. Even if it were their responsibility why should they take it upon themselves to do for us what we would not do for ourselves? Armed law abiding citizens have always been the first line of defense against criminal predators. Disarming law abiding citizens does nothing other than provide the criminal predator with defenseless victims. Proof of that fact is painfully obvious by simply noting that every single mass murder in the past decade has been committed in so called "Gun Free Zones". It does not take a genus to understand why. Open carry of a gun helps assure the safety of every person there because criminals want victims not armed opponents. A far greater man than I said it alot better

    Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

    The next time you see someone openly carrying a fire arm consider thanking them for accepting the responsibility of defending their own lives and the lives around them. For doing their part in making the community just a little bit safer for us all.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I find this immature and childish. Don't you?
    So, those carrying openly should conceal because of someone's immature and childish reaction?
    Yes, some people are scared of armed citizens. It is no one's duty or responsibility to 'educate' those who prefer to live their lives in the manner they choose.
    But it's the coward's right to educate the rest of us in the proper way to act in public?
    When I see an armed citizen I pay more attention to that individual.
    Bad guys seldom walk around with a firearm in the holster in plain view, they are more likely to have it concealed and give away their intent with body language.

    Exactly. Some people simply do not want to see open carry.
    And I wish to see more open carry.

    And when those involved cannot even artculate the self defense reason for carrying, as the author writes, then it is shameful. Just because something is legal does not mean it is the right thing to do. And to do it simply because it is legal is immature. Consideration of others is a valuable trait.
    Too bad those cowards complaining about open carry have no consideration for others.

  12. #42
    kpw
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    If I have offended anyone while OC'ing, I haven't noticed. I haven't heard any complaints, noticed any visible reactions or had anyone running from the scene. There are those in our society that will be offended by just about anything. Why should I concern myself with them? If someone is offended by a man eating ice cream with his daughters or shopping at the store because he has a firearm, that is their problem. The same as if they were offended with my hair style, clothing, the music I listen to or type of car I drive. Should I be offended by their choices in life? If I was, it would be my problem.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    If I have offended anyone while OC'ing, I haven't noticed.
    If anyone has chosen to be offended by your perfectly reasonable and lawful action, you mean.

    Why should I concern myself with them?
    Other then their power (in the millions) to effect irrational change, you shouldn't. And neither do I, beyond that element.

    The same as if they were offended with my hair style, clothing, the music I listen to or type of car I drive. Should I be offended by their choices in life? If I was, it would be my problem.
    Exactly.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #44
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    Posted!
    Randy
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  15. #45
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    This whole silly argument reminds me of a conversation I had at the range once when a guy saw me shooting my suppressed .300 Whisper.

    He was absolutely and totally convinced that they were illegal to own. Nothing I could say could change his mind, and he was totally oblivious to what he was hearing. He just " knew" that they were illegal and that the cops would descend upon me any minute.

    I outlined the whole process for him and even took out my "tax stamp" to show him. He informed me that the local police didn't know about it and if they did, they would arrest me. I showed him the Sheriff's signature on it and I could tell he was at a loss for words...so he shut up and left me alone.

    So I shot for another 30 minutes or so and he stayed at the other end of the shooting benches watching me like a hawk the whole time.

    When I started packing up, he came back over to me and started lecturing me about no decent person should be allowed to own one as they were the tools of criminals. He even mentioned to me that he was going to report me to the "club officials". I smirked and handed him my business card and took out my cell phone and told him that I would wait for his call. He gave me a confused look and then noticed that it was me that got the calls for abuses on the range.

    As he was standing there with the totally confused look I offered to give him what was left of his range dues, since he had a problem with the whole idea. I also informed him that we have a rather healthy population in the club of people that owned machine guns and suppressors.

    Fortunately for us, he didn't renew his membership last time around and he is no longer a member.

    That guy knew what he knew and the facts didn't matter, nothing could convince him of reality, nor did he care to learn. Some people really are a waste of time and effort and they wont be educated. They were born stupid and more than likely they will die stupid.

    With that being said, I do believe that people can be educated and I think that it is a worthy cause, however, at some stage in the future you have to determine if it is worth the effort or a complete waste of time.

    We can even see it here in a limited manner in our occasional and often
    lively discussions. Sometimes you just have to reach a point where you have nothing more to say, because doing so is a waste of time and effort.

    When it comes to open carry and seeing armed people in restaurants, movie theaters or just walking down the side walk, there are those that are seeing and thinking. Some are indifferent, some are interested, some think its a great idea, others think its terrible but continue on, and others choose to be offended.

    A small percentage of those that choose to be offended can be shown the facts and they will learn. As for the others...well, they know what they know and nothing will change that.

    Since open carry is a legal activity, the idea of it being offensive or immature or not the right thing to do is a moot point, it simply doesn't matter.

    I firmly believe in the old saying that says, "lead, follow or get the heck out of the way". If you are going to lead, do it and be a man about it and if you are going to follow,then do it and be a man about that too.

    Otherwise, get the heck out of the way because you are taking up space and making it more difficult for better men than yourself. Sure, you have your place in society...as cannon-fodder.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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