Man arrested for carrying at Obama rally

Man arrested for carrying at Obama rally

This is a discussion on Man arrested for carrying at Obama rally within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Beaver County Times & Allegheny Times Online - News Man arrested for having gun at rally By Bill Vidonic, Times Staff Published: Friday, August 29, ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Man arrested for carrying at Obama rally

    Beaver County Times & Allegheny Times Online - News

    Man arrested for having gun at rally

    By Bill Vidonic, Times Staff
    Published: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:10 PM EDT
    BEAVER — An Industry man is facing a disorderly conduct charge for attending the Barack Obama rally in Irvine Park with a loaded gun that was holstered on his hip, according to state police and the Beaver County sheriff’s department.

    John Noble, 50, was questioned by police for several hours Friday night after the incident, in which witnesses said he also was passing out fliers with writing about gun rights.

    John Atkinson of Vanport Township said he saw Noble passing out the fliers and noticed the small-caliber handgun strapped to the man’s waist. He said he quickly notified nearby deputy sheriffs, and deputies Joseph O’Sche and Rich Yonlisky approached the man as he walked along Market Street.

    Atkinson said that when the deputies asked why he had a gun, Noble replied, “Because I’m an American,” and one of the deputies responded, “Well, you’re under arrest.”

    Noble was hustled to a nearby vehicle, and state police took him to the Brighton Township barracks to question him.

    Beaver County Sheriff George David said that Noble insisted he had a right to have the gun because he has a permit to carry it. It wasn’t clear late Friday whether Noble had a valid permit.

    David said Noble “wanted to show his rights.” He said Noble never removed the gun from the holster or threatened anyone.

    Noble’s arrest took place around 7 p.m., nearly 90 minutes before Sen. Obama and the rest of his campaign team arrived in Beaver.

    Bill Vidonic can be reached online at bvidonic@timesonline.com.

    i want to start that i don't want this to turn into an OC/CC debate. granted, OCing at a political rally may not have been the smartest thing to do, but that's just my opinion. some will say he did us a disservice by proving we're a bunch of gun toting, bible thumping yahoos. that may be. but it doesn't excuse the fact that what he did, was perfectly legal. some facts about OC in PA: you cannot be charged with disorderly conduct, terroristic threats, or brandishing for simply wearing a gun. period.

    in my town, the st. patty's day parade is the biggest event of the year. this past st. patty's day, i wore my gun to the parade. openly. i knew hillary clinton would be there, but i figured she'd be in a float or something. she walked by me, less than 20 feet away. walked by me, and the worst i got was some eyeballing by Scranton PD. and i got crap from some feminazis for waving my ron paul sign at clinton, but that's besides the point. i got within 20 feet of the woman who helped author the AWB, and i did it fully, visibly armed.
    Last edited by Scott; August 30th, 2008 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Obama had nothing to do with the man's arrest. Removed uneeded political rant.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    sounds like a wrongful arrest without cause..... and a lawsuit in the process. There is nothing in the laws that I'm aware preventing him from doing what he did. Although, I can see why the SS would get sciddish about it, it is their job... but detain and question... not arrest and trump up some BS.

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    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    papers please
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    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    One shouldn't be arrested for doing something distasteful.
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    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    you cannot be charged with disorderly conduct, terroristic threats, or brandishing for simply wearing a gun. period.
    I believe this is in error, but only if a disturbance is being caused as a result of the act. The same would hold true for many legal activities. However, there is no indication that a disturbance was being created by the incident.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

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    Member Array Kovernm's Avatar
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    When I was younger I worked for a company that vended at a local teams ball diamond. I was asked to work when President George W. Bush came to speak at the ball diamond. I showed up about four hours before his speech was to take place and there was secret service at the drive way. Sense I did not work directly for the ball diamond I was not issued a pass. Everyone working or attending the speech had to have a pass. I was able to call my boss who was already inside and get him to convince them that I worked for him. After all that I had to walk through a security setup at the gate. Here in Michigan you can not carry at any sports arena or stadium, but I am sure that had nothing to do with it.

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    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    I believe this is in error, but only if a disturbance is being caused as a result of the act. The same would hold true for many legal activities. However, there is no indication that a disturbance was being created by the incident.

    that's the law in PA. to be charged disorderly conduct, terroristic threats, brandishing, or public nuisance, you have to be actually doing something. open carry of a gun doesn't qualify. threatening someone with it, or being drunk and obnoxious while carrying, would. also, trespassing on private property could result in a disorderly conduct charge.

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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    As a retired LEO allow me to comment. I read the article but was unable to determine which state this was in. If it was an open carry state this man was certainly within his rights. As for the disorderly conduct charge, that would depend wholly on how the statute was written. Many contain the phrase "any action which causes others distress". In this case the charges may stick. Such wording is intended to give law enforcement the upper hand when encountering
    situations not specifically covered by law, such as pan handling, which many locales don't have on the books because it's never been a problem. Such wording however does invite abuse, when it is used just to get someone off the street. If I was this gentleman I would certainly consult a lawyer.
    "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
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    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Being detained like that is actual arrest, but some places allow people to be detained for a while without it counting as an arrest (unless they "resist arrest"). Yeah, this is going to depend on local laws and the local court system.

    I wouldn't count him carrying as a criminal act, and the information given does not indicate the cop had a reason for bending the rules to prevent trouble.

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    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    ............I read the article but was unable to determine which state this was in. ............
    On the article web page, I clicked on the weather report link and the report that came up was for Beaver, PA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    As for the disorderly conduct charge, that would depend wholly on how the statute was written. Many contain the phrase "any action which causes others distress". In this case the charges may stick.
    It was in Beaver, PA and I did notice from the first post that the person carrying was reported to the police by a third person. Now if the exchange also reported in that post is accurate, the person carrying was never asked to leave, just taken into custody, that just seems wrong.
    Rick

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  12. #12
    Member Array Ship A'Hoy's Avatar
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    USC Title 18, Section 1752

    Sec. 1752. Temporary residences and offices of the President and pthers


    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person or group of persons -

    (1) willfully and knowingly to enter or remain in

    (i) any building or grounds designated by the Secretary of
    the Treasury as temporary residences of the President or other
    person protected by the Secret Service or as temporary offices
    of the President and his staff or of any other person protected
    by the Secret Service, or

    (ii) any posted, cordoned off, or otherwise restricted area
    of a building or grounds where the President or other person
    protected by the Secret Service is or will be temporarily
    visiting, in violation of the regulations governing ingress or egress
    thereto:

    (2) with intent to impede or disrupt the orderly conduct of
    Government business or official functions, to engage in
    disorderly or disruptive conduct in, or within such proximity to,
    any building or grounds designated in paragraph (1) when, or so
    that, such conduct, in fact, impedes or disrupts the orderly
    conduct of Government business or official functions;

    (3) willfully and knowingly to obstruct or impede ingress or
    egress to or from any building, grounds, or area designated or
    enumerated in paragraph (1); or

    (4) willfully and knowingly to engage in any act of physical
    violence against any person or property in any building, grounds,
    or area designated or enumerated in paragraph (1).
    (b) Violation of this section, and attempts or conspiracies to
    commit such violations, shall be punishable by a fine under this
    title or imprisonment not exceeding six months, or both.
    (c) Violation of this section, and attempts or conspiracies to
    commit such violations, shall be prosecuted by the United States
    attorney in the Federal district court having jurisdiction of the
    place where the offense occurred.
    (d) The Secretary of the Treasury is authorized -

    (1) to designate by regulations the buildings and grounds which
    constitute the temporary residences of the President or other
    person protected by the Secret Service and the temporary offices
    of the President and his staff or of any other person protected
    by the Secret Service, and

    (2) to prescribe regulations governing ingress or egress to
    such buildings and grounds and to posted, cordoned off, or
    otherwise restricted areas where the President or other person
    protected by the Secret Service is or will be temporarily
    visiting.
    (e) None of the laws of the United States or of the several
    States and the District of Columbia shall be superseded by this
    section.
    (f) As used in this section, the term "other person protected by
    the Secret Service" means any person whom the United States Secret
    Service is authorized to protect under section 3056 of this title
    when such person has not declined such protection.
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  13. #13
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    that's the law in PA. to be charged disorderly conduct, terroristic threats, brandishing, or public nuisance, you have to be actually doing something. open carry of a gun doesn't qualify. threatening someone with it, or being drunk and obnoxious while carrying, would. also, trespassing on private property could result in a disorderly conduct charge.
    By Penn law, I believe you are in error on your assumptions, but even so and as noted above, it may not be a state offense, but federal...

    5503. Disorderly conduct.
    (a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly
    conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance
    or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
    (1) engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or
    tumultuous behavior;
    (2) makes unreasonable noise;
    (3) uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture;
    or
    (4) creates a hazardous or physically offensive
    condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of
    the actor.
    (b) Grading.--An offense under this section is a misdemeanor
    of the third degree if the intent of the actor is to cause
    substantial harm or serious inconvenience, or if he persists in
    disorderly conduct after reasonable warning or request to
    desist. Otherwise disorderly conduct is a summary offense.
    (c) Definition.--As used in this section the word "public"
    means affecting or likely to affect persons in a place to which
    the public or a substantial group has access; among the places
    included are highways, transport facilities, schools, prisons,
    apartment houses, places of business or amusement, any
    neighborhood, or any premises which are open to the public.

    Cross References. Section 5503 is referred to in sections
    3573, 8902 of Title 42 (Judiciary and Judicial Procedure).
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  14. #14
    Member Array spooter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    As a retired LEO allow me to comment. I read the article but was unable to determine which state this was in. If it was an open carry state this man was certainly within his rights. As for the disorderly conduct charge, that would depend wholly on how the statute was written. Many contain the phrase "any action which causes others distress". In this case the charges may stick. Such wording is intended to give law enforcement the upper hand when encountering
    situations not specifically covered by law, such as pan handling, which many locales don't have on the books because it's never been a problem. Such wording however does invite abuse, when it is used just to get someone off the street. If I was this gentleman I would certainly consult a lawyer.
    Here is a link to this to this same discussion over at OCDO: MTN Jack arrested - Pennsylvania

    PA law says exactly what can be considered disorderly conduct, and doesn't really leave any loopsholes for the POPO. Here's how the law reads in PA:

    DISORDERLY CONDUCT

    (a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if,
    with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or
    recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:

    1. Engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous
    behavior;
    2. Makes unreasonable noise;
    3. Uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or
    4. Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any
    act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.

    #4 is about the biggest loophole, but even that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for police, at least as far as open carry is concerned.

    Here's a snippet from another forum about open carry in PA:

    "Though this section does not deal with firearms,
    due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by
    officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a
    person who is not licensed per 6109 or exempted by 6106(b)
    MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal
    charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their
    handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying
    of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous
    or physically offensive condition. There are also two cases
    that that specifically state that a person may carry a firearm
    openly: Commonwealth v. Ortiz www.tinyurl.com/2wtovz
    and Commonwealth v. Hawkins. www.tinyurl.com/346wwr"
    "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill


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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ship A'Hoy View Post
    USC Title 18, Section 1752

    Sec. 1752. Temporary residences and offices of the President and pthers


    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person or group of persons -

    (1) willfully and knowingly to enter or remain in

    (i) any building or grounds designated by the Secretary of
    the Treasury as temporary residences of the President or other
    person protected by the Secret Service or as temporary offices
    of the President and his staff or of any other person protected
    by the Secret Service, or

    (ii) any posted, cordoned off, or otherwise restricted area
    of a building or grounds where the President or other person
    protected by the Secret Service is or will be temporarily
    visiting, in violation of the regulations governing ingress or egress
    thereto:

    (2) with intent to impede or disrupt the orderly conduct of
    Government business or official functions, to engage in
    disorderly or disruptive conduct in, or within such proximity to,
    any building or grounds designated in paragraph (1) when, or so
    that, such conduct, in fact, impedes or disrupts the orderly
    conduct of Government business or official functions;

    (3) willfully and knowingly to obstruct or impede ingress or
    egress to or from any building, grounds, or area designated or
    enumerated in paragraph (1); or

    (4) willfully and knowingly to engage in any act of physical
    violence against any person or property in any building, grounds,
    or area designated or enumerated in paragraph (1).
    (b) Violation of this section, and attempts or conspiracies to
    commit such violations, shall be punishable by a fine under this
    title or imprisonment not exceeding six months, or both.
    (c) Violation of this section, and attempts or conspiracies to
    commit such violations, shall be prosecuted by the United States
    attorney in the Federal district court having jurisdiction of the
    place where the offense occurred.
    (d) The Secretary of the Treasury is authorized -

    (1) to designate by regulations the buildings and grounds which
    constitute the temporary residences of the President or other
    person protected by the Secret Service and the temporary offices
    of the President and his staff or of any other person protected
    by the Secret Service, and

    (2) to prescribe regulations governing ingress or egress to
    such buildings and grounds and to posted, cordoned off, or
    otherwise restricted areas where the President or other person
    protected by the Secret Service is or will be temporarily
    visiting.
    (e) None of the laws of the United States or of the several
    States and the District of Columbia shall be superseded by this
    section.

    (f) As used in this section, the term "other person protected by
    the Secret Service" means any person whom the United States Secret
    Service is authorized to protect under section 3056 of this title
    when such person has not declined such protection.
    Section "(e)" is key in this situation if there's nothing on the books for this situation in Penn state codes.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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