Pistol-packing Pa. soccer mom loses gun permit (Merged)

This is a discussion on Pistol-packing Pa. soccer mom loses gun permit (Merged) within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I recently read this on a PA gun owner forum, and there argument was that if she gets her LTCF revoked, then her only alternative ...

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Thread: Pistol-packing Pa. soccer mom loses gun permit (Merged)

  1. #16
    Member Array TJMill's Avatar
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    I recently read this on a PA gun owner forum, and there argument was that if she gets her LTCF revoked, then her only alternative was to O.C. However, I think if she has no sense is situations like these she shouldn't be able to carry at all. This only gives are opponents bad ammo "so to speak".

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  3. #17
    Member Array spooter66's Avatar
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    Already running on another thread. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...un-permit.html

    This park was public property and not a school event. PA laws says she did nothing wrong. The sheriff unlawfully revoked her LTCF. This type of thing has happened many times in PA and every time the sheriff gets his peepee wacked by a judge.
    "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill


  4. #18
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    I agree that if she violated the law she should be dealt the appropriate punishment or fine and public rebuke. However, if she were legal to carry there then possibly bad judgment to OC thats the age old argument. But I totally disagree that is somehow bad judgment to carry in a place where people are want to act irrational and just plumb stupid. When I read this I knew I had heard the reciprocal story; Idiot shoots another idiot at soccer match. A quick google and viola; I found a Metro Briefing | New York: Bronx: Man Shot After Soccer Game - New York Timesstory but not the one I set out to find. If legal I would carry, not to start a fight and to avoid one if possible but what a shame I would feel if I were there, unarmed, and some jackass tried to shoot me, a loved one or just started shootin' up the place.

    The succumbing to the will of the sheep by taking in to account their dismay surprises me.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Jackle1886's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nn View Post
    She had issues that were not appropiate for the place in question and now has bigger issues. People, we have to use our heads.
    I agree that we need to use our heads, but if it is perfectly legal to do what she did, then why not. Just because we might "offend someone"!!! Using her head to me means having enough brains to actually PROTECT HER CHILDREN if the need arose. Sounds like sound parenting to me!
    Better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spooter66 View Post
    Already running on another thread. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...un-permit.html

    This park was public property and not a school event. PA laws says she did nothing wrong. The sheriff unlawfully revoked her LTCF. This type of thing has happened many times in PA and every time the sheriff gets his peepee wacked by a judge.
    If it was on non-school property and was not a school sanctioned event then she s/b ok.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  7. #21
    Member Array TapRackBang's Avatar
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    Not quite enough info on this one to call.

    If she was carrying open, I would wonder why.

    First, your giving up the very important tactical option of surprise.

    Second because it's legal doesn't make it the right option. It's legal for me the wear spandex but it would cause emotional distress with the general public, so I avoid it. Sometimes less is more.
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  8. #22
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    While some may not agree with her open carrying, she did nothing wrong. She was within her legal rights. She was not carrying in a prohibited place. She was not menacing anyone. This was not the first game she had been to and open carried. Just this time someone got their shorts in a ball. Besides that, what does her open carrying have to do with her permit? Read the last post on this attachment, and look at the "reason" given for revoking her license. I foresee a judge overturning her revocation.

    shefearsnothing's Revocation and Legal Info thread
    Last edited by archer51; September 24th, 2008 at 07:07 PM. Reason: corrected spelling
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  9. #23
    Member Array spooter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 747Sonny View Post
    I notice that caption says "pistol packin soccer mom". Considering that PA is so liberal and anti-gun Rendel, I'm surprised they didn't somehow tie this to Gov. Palin. Just my thoughts on this.
    Whoa there Sonny! The only part of PA that is liberal is the Philly area. As for the rest of PA, we are about as redneck and conservative as you can get. Weasel Rendel my be a liberal and an anti but the only way he got voted in was because of the voters in philly. He's afraid to leave Philly because he knows everyone else in the state hates his guts. Rant over!
    "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill


  10. #24
    Senior Member Array rmarkob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaystekan View Post
    Well, if she got a warning from soccer officials, it sounds like she was asked by whomever is in charge of the soccer program to not carry her weapon. Technically, the soccer officials are in charge of that property while the game is in progress, and they do have the right to prohibit carrying a firearm. She chooses to continue carrying against their wishes/warning, then it could be trespassing.
    Not in PA they don't. They might have the right to not allow her daughter to participate, but they have nothing to say about the mother OCing in a public park.

    The irony of revoking her LTCF is that now the ONLY way she can carry is OC!
    Clinging to guns and God in PA...

  11. #25
    Member Array spooter66's Avatar
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    Here is a link to a local paper, notice the sheriffs statements in the last couple of paragraphs.

    Pistol-packin’ soccer mama brings on heat - Lebanon Daily News


    Pistol-packin’ soccer mama brings on heat
    By JOHN LATIMER
    Staff Writer
    Lebanon Daily News
    Article Launched: 09/24/2008 10:19:08 AM EDT


    What’s the difference between a bulldog and a soccer mom?

    In the case of Meleanie Hain, it’s a loaded sidearm.

    On Sept. 11, Hain created a stir among other parents when she wore her weapon — a loaded Glock 26, about the size of an adult hand — in a holster to her 5-year-old daughter’s soccer game at Optimist Park in Lebanon, also known as Southwest Park.

    Although she did not break a law by carrying the weapon openly, she is now facing the loss of her concealed-weapons permit. But she is not giving up without a fight.

    “I’m just a soccer mom who has always openly carried (a firearm), and I’ve never had a problem before,” she said. “I don’t understand why this is happening to me.”

    Parents were upset by the presence of the weapon at the game being played by 4- and 5-year-olds, said Charlie Jones, who coaches one of three under-age-6 teams, known as U6, in the Lebanon Recreation Youth Soccer program.

    “More than one parent was upset,” he said. “I did not see it, but it was brought to my attention.”

    Jones, who is also the county’s public defender, said he wasn’t certain if Hain was breaking the law by wearing the gun, so he did not ask her to remove it. However, he explained to her that its presence was making parents upset and asked her to view the game from the other side of the field, away from the sideline were the kids were standing. She complied but continued to wear her holstered weapon, he said.

    There was no confrontation, and police were not called to the park, Jones said.

    Hain’s version of events is roughly the same as Jones’. However, she claims he raised his voice and talked over her when they spoke after the game. He denies that.

    “His basic message to me was that if I was not carrying it because I was concerned about the other parents, then I should leave it off the field and keep it in the car,” she said.

    Hain, who lives in Lebanon and operates a small business she declined to specify, said she carries her gun everywhere as a security measure and had worn it to her daughter’s other games and practices, but it was never noticed.

    Hain was not breaking the law by wearing a holstered weapon, claimed her attorney, Robert Magee of Allentown.

    “The state has a law requiring a license to carry a concealed firearm, but it does not require a license to openly carry one. ... Carrying a firearm openly is legal everywhere but in Philadelphia,” he said.

    The end of the game was not the end of the incident for Hain. In the days following, she received two notices about her decision to wear a firearm at the game.

    The first came from the Lebanon soccer-program director, Nigel Foundling, who had been contacted by Jones.

    A former district judge from Jonestown, Foundling sent an e-mail to Hain the day after the incident advising her that carrying firearms was against the program’s policy. Foundling told Hain any future attempts to do so would cause her to be banned from attending her daughter’s games. He also said he would inform police about the matter.

    “A responsible adult would realize that such behavior has no place at a soccer game,” Foundling wrote.

    The e-mail and other information about the incident were provided to the Lebanon Daily News with Hain’s permission by Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of the OpenCarry.org — an organization promoting the right to wear firearms openly.

    Hain said Foundling had no right to prevent her from openly carrying her gun, and she has not abided by his orders.

    “After I received the e-mail, I continued to carry,” she said. “Because they play on public property, they are not allowed to prevent me from carrying even though they are a private organization. ... Nigel seems to think he could throw his weight around and pick on me even though he is not a judge anymore.”

    Foundling was unavailable for comment.

    A few days after receiving Foundling’s e-mail, Hain received a letter from county Sheriff Mike DeLeo, the local authority in charge of issuing gun licenses. A parent of another child contacted him about Hain.

    In response, DeLeo revoked her concealed-weapons permit under a statute of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act that denies permits to any “individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a dangerous manner to public safety.”

    Although DeLeo has never met Hain and does not know her, he based his decision on what he considered a lack of judgment in bringing an openly worn weapon to a youth soccer match.

    “That is my personal opinion,” he said. “I believe that, and that is why I revoked her permit. She has the right to pursue an appeal, and if the court rules that I was not justified I will be required to give her permit back.”

    Magee said he is preparing to file an appeal.

    “There is a provision of the Pennsylvania Constitution that specifically prohibits any government agency from interfering with the right of an individual to openly carry a firearm,” he said. “He’s basically punishing her for doing something she is permitted by law to do.”

    DeLeo said he was well aware of the irony that his revocation of Hain’s permit to conceal a weapon will actually force her to wear it openly if she chooses to carry her firearm. He said he wanted to bring the matter to the public’s attention, but he did not have the right to take away her gun, so revoking the permit was his only option.

    “I felt some action was needed, and I do believe that something like this should be brought to the public’s attention so the public is aware of what took place,” he said. “The public has the right to complain about the issue, and if the Legislature wants to do something, then so be it.”



    He admits that what she did was completely legal, but he revoked it anyway to make a political statement. So much for upholding and obeying the laws.

    Was it a wise decision to O/C in that situation - probably not. It doesn't matter now, the fact is the sheriff unlawfully revoked her permit.
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Appears she did nothing wrong. And it appears the Sheriff has decided to revoke on grounds she is a danger to the public. Will be hard to prove that since she has openly carried before and qualified for a Concealed Weapons permit and not shown any "likelyhood to be a danger to the public". She simply has proven that wrong by her history.


  13. #27
    Senior Member Array rmarkob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenInColo View Post
    If it was on non-school property and was not a school sanctioned event then she s/b ok.
    Exactly. If it were school property, she would have been arrested and the revocation would have been in keeping with the PA Uniform Firearms Act conditions for revoking a License To Carry Firearms (LTCF).

    Other recent revocations for the act of simply open carrying have been overturned in court in PA, and there are two PA Supreme Court cases (Commonwealth v. Ortiz, 1996 and Commonwealth v. Hawkins, 1996) which affirm the legality of OC in PA.

    Argue all you want over the propriety of OC in this case or others, and IANAL, but the legality of doing so and the lack of justification for revoking an LTCF because of it are well established by caselaw in PA. I expect that will be the outcome of this case as well.
    Clinging to guns and God in PA...

  14. #28
    Member Array jfrommbg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spooter66 View Post
    Already running on another thread. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...un-permit.html

    This park was public property and not a school event. PA laws says she did nothing wrong. The sheriff unlawfully revoked her LTCF. This type of thing has happened many times in PA and every time the sheriff gets his peepee wacked by a judge.
    Yup. She did nothing illegal in PA. Soccer game was at a public place not on school property. She has a lawyer. She is appealing. She will win and get her LCTF back. I don't OC and I am not an OC fan but the law is the law and she was well within her PA constitutional rights to OC at the event. This is a no brainer slam dunk for her attorney. There are PA supreme court cases validating PA citizens rights to OC and there are other cases where a persons LCTF was reinstated for silly sheriff revocations for OC'ing. Personal judgements or approvals about her OC'ing at a kids soccer game are I guess debatable, but the legality of OC in this situation in PA is not.

  15. #29
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    One thing to add. It is considered a first degree misdemeanor if carrying on school property in PA. This always creates a quandary for me because my daughter plays on two tournament softball teams and many times the games are played in different areas of the state. I'm cognizant of the law so I either have to not take my weapon or make sure I park my vehicle off school property so I don't violate the law.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenInColo View Post
    Even if the soccer match was held off school property, say at a specific field of a public park, there is a good chance that the judge will rule against the 'oc soccer mom' and say that the venue, while not school property, can, for the duration of the school event, be considered school property.

    This would also apply to events such as proms held at private catering halls, graduations held at public auditoriums etc.
    how does soccer = school? It's rec league soccer. It was NOT at a school. Any and all references to school property are irrelevent and moot.
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