Open Carry on Private Property

This is a discussion on Open Carry on Private Property within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've done a little research, but understand don't use what I'm about to say as your legal defense . Almost in very situation, once you ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 30 of 30

Thread: Open Carry on Private Property

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,347
    I've done a little research, but understand don't use what I'm about to say as your legal defense. Almost in very situation, once you take the gun out of the holster, in open view, even if just showing a friend the gun, you are easily charged with brandishing a weapon.

    I spoke to a few lawyers and LE who happen by where I work. I see a lot of them. In MI, and most states, if you are a citizen of that state, and the pistol is legal, you own the firearm, and you are on your own property, it is legal to open carry (unless the laws in that area clearly state no open carry, or open carry = brandish, etc).

    Interesting side note, CC is ok in almost every situation if you are a citizen of that state, you own the firearm, and the pistol is legal, and you are on your own property.

    In addition, it would be bad idea to be a grumpy loud neighbor while doing the open carry. Might sound wrong, but basically you give up freedom of speach if you are practing the right to bear arms open carry. While what I just said about rights is not legally true, I'm just summing up with out being wordy or PC.

    My $.02

    PS -

    Quote Originally Posted by starshooter231 View Post
    It's legal to OC on and off your property in Michigan. We do have some restrictions though.
    +95%

    MI open carry law is impossible to nail down. Basically it is legal unless they deside to charge you for 500 other options.
    Last edited by Thanis; November 7th, 2008 at 08:07 PM. Reason: spelling of option.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    JD
    JD is online now
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,188
    The brandishing thing is BS. Unless you are physically trying to intimidate an individual with the gun (in an illegal manner) it's not brandishing.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,347
    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    The brandishing thing is BS. Unless you are physically trying to intimidate an individual with the gun (in an illegal manner) it's not brandishing.
    True. I sort of worded wrong. But you are talking legal and I'm talking about reducing conversations before LE, a judge, or jury.

    Pretty much once you place your hand on a firearm not contained in a holster out in the open (not talking hunting), from brandishing to disturbing the peace, something will stick.

  5. #19
    JD
    JD is online now
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,188
    We're starting to get a little off topic here, so if this continues, I will move it to another thread all it's own...

    So by your justification, if I am walking out of the Gibralter Trade Center gun show, I just bought a rifle, and I'm carrying to my car, I'm going to be charged "from brandishing to disturbing the peace, something will stick."

    Or how about all those guys out at Island Lake? They're handling guns and not hunting, are they going be be charged with something?

    Just ask the Governor. (From her AG days)

    Opinion #7101 (sets a precedent as to what brandishing is)

    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."
    And why would anyone handle their gun in public (or on your own land) without legal reason anyway? Keep it holstered unless there's a threat.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,347
    My post are just concerning open carry on land you own with say a pistol in a holster .

    Not as a matter of law (or legal fact) but as a matter of fact (real world reality), once you take the open carry gun out of the holster, in public, and / or act aggressively, you are opening yourself to other possibilities. I'll leave the samantics to others.

    But per the thread topic, IMO, and per those I have spoken to, open carry is very often legal on property you own, but can lead to other issues if not keep in the holster.

    Not talking rifles, trade shows, hunting, etc. Just Joe & Jane average open carry pistol on private property.

  7. #21
    JD
    JD is online now
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    My post are just concerning open carry on land you own with say a pistol in a holster .

    Not as a matter of law but as a matter of fact, once you take the open carry gun out of the holster, in public, and / or act agressively, you are opening yourself to other possibilities. I'll leave the samantics to others.

    But per the thread topic, IMO, and per those I have spoken to, open carry is very often legal on property you own, but can lead to other issues if not keep in the holster.

    Not talking rifles, trade shows, hunting, etc. Just joe average open carry pistol.
    What does this have to do with Open Carry at all? By your reasoning If you're on your own property and draw your gun from concealment, you're going to equally screwed, by your reasoning just having the gun in your hand is reason to be charged.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,347
    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    ...by your reasoning just having the gun in your hand is reason to be charged.
    Yep.

    It may not be a very good reason. I may not think it is fair. But very often with open carry issues, it is more about what LE thinks is reasonable then what I think is reasonable.

    Not for a second I am stating this should happen to people who open carry and do this or that. I'm just stating what often does happen.

    I think the most recient example here in MI was a guy who was told to go home by LE when the people at a sporting goods store told him he could not enter store while open carry. Now this is an example of OC on anothers private property, but LE did not tell him to leave. They told him to go home and keep the firearm at home or else. No one clarified the or else.

    Here in MI, when it comes up, and LE gets involved with dispute between someone who is open carry and an anti-gun who has a problem with it, very often, the one with an open carry firearm gets charged. I think 2 summers ago it was a charge for disturbing the peace (person out in public not on private property) and that person has not recived their firearm yet even though charges were dropped. There was a lot of chatter about it on the internet.

    These are all open carry related issues (that are revelant and even discussed on opencarry.com or some site address like that).

    I open carry very often in lower northern (central?) MI.

    I have OC in my shop SE MI. When people ask to see the pistol, I have never agreed to take it out of the holster.

  9. #23
    Member Array Nelson Muntz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    38
    If I can add my .37 (tax included) to this topic before it gets moved. IANAL

    Judging from the brandishing wording in my state law and at least one other I've seen I'd wager that there is careful exception built in to prevent charging when it is unnecessary.

    On private property, exhibitory or instructive display is not brandishing. It may well be on public property if in the mind of another fear is induced. (uninvolved passerby for example)

    However, display with INTENT to use, on both public and private property is excepted when necessary for lawful defensive purposes.

    The standard that must be reached for charging is intent to induce fear in the mind of another. The lawful exception is in defense. LE must prove intent to induce fear, beyond the lawful exception, for the charge to stick. Period.

    You and I can not help the knowledge or lack of in an attending LEO. And it is not your job or even wise to attempt to 'educate' LE on fine points of law during detainment. It may become inconvenient and you may have to take a short ride, but the place to correct the situation is with the judge. Be polite, firm, and just cooperative enough to not be additionally charged with resisting, but don't run your mouth in an attempt to talk your way out of anything. You may find your words misinterpreted and used against you.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
    Posts
    574
    Ok, when, why, and WHERE did pulling the gun out of the holster enter into this conversation? The original question was whether OC was legal on one's own property or not. Not whether it was legal to pull it out.

  11. #25
    JD
    JD is online now
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    Ok, when, why, and WHERE did pulling the gun out of the holster enter into this conversation? The original question was whether OC was legal on one's own property or not. Not whether it was legal to pull it out.
    Well you see:

    First it was "You can get charged for brandishing for OC'ing on your own property", I debunked that.

    Then it was "You can get charged for brandishing for holding a gun in public" I debunked that.

    Then it was "You can get charged for acting like an ass while OC'ing in public" I left that one alone because it's true...kind of...

    Then it was you going get charged for drawing your gun.

    I'm done with it.

    The bottom line is that it's totally legal to OC on your own property, your not going to be charged for brandishing unless you're wrongfully threatening someone.

    I will agree with that if you do OC, you need to have a pleasant demeanor as if you do get into a "heated discussion" no matter what property you're on, the other party may feel threatened enough by your attitude and the presance of your gun to swing a brandishing charge...you'll probably beat it, but it could happen.

  12. #26
    Member Array Nelson Muntz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    38
    You dont have to remove your pistol from your holster to 'induce fear in the mind of another' to be charged with brandishing. Placing your hand on the butt of your holstered weapon with menacing eye contact and/or verbal threats is also brandishing.

    Just got out of a law class this morn with atty Richard Gardiner (Heller brief submitter) where we discussed this along with many other issues.

    (From my BlackJack II)

  13. #27
    JD
    JD is online now
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson Muntz View Post
    You dont have to remove your pistol from your holster to 'induce fear in the mind of another' to be charged with brandishing. Placing your hand on the butt of your holstered weapon with menacing eye contact and/or verbal threats is also brandishing.

    Just got out of a law class this morn with atty Richard Gardiner (Heller brief submitter) where we discussed this along with many other issues.

    (From my BlackJack II)

    Quite true, but that's enough about brandishing.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
    Posts
    574
    Oh. Ok. ;) Although, I've heard rumors there are some states, (NJ, HI?) where it might not be allowed. Or maybe that was just DC.


    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Well you see:

    First it was "You can get charged for brandishing for OC'ing on your own property", I debunked that.

    Then it was "You can get charged for brandishing for holding a gun in public" I debunked that.

    Then it was "You can get charged for acting like an ass while OC'ing in public" I left that one alone because it's true...kind of...

    Then it was you going get charged for drawing your gun.

    I'm done with it..............

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,003
    Quote Originally Posted by NavDoc View Post
    I just read a post stating that he was out on his front porch ... while his pistol was in plain view. In most states, is this legit?
    In Oregon, it's fine, though with some exceptions. The silly statute allows for some municipal/county infringement on carrying if you don't have a CHL, though most everywhere it's perfectly fine. In those more-restricted zones (in the major cities), the prohibition is against loaded firearms. As such OC folks simply carry the weapon openly, but have a magazine in the pouch ready to go. Dumb. And it should, IMO, be a state-wide OC coverage, with preemption. But there it is.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  16. #30
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    the raggedy edge
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson Muntz View Post
    You dont have to remove your pistol from your holster to 'induce fear in the mind of another' to be charged with brandishing. Placing your hand on the butt of your holstered weapon with menacing eye contact and/or verbal threats is also brandishing.

    Just got out of a law class this morn with atty Richard Gardiner (Heller brief submitter) where we discussed this along with many other issues.

    (From my BlackJack II)
    not in PA. in order to be considered "brandishing", you have to be holding the gun. there is case law on it, i don't have it handy right now, but you can't be convicted of disturbing the peace, brandishing, terroristic threats, or causing a public nuisance for OC, either.

    as for the OP, OC is legal in LA; although i'm not sure of the restrictions, i'm willing to bet money that you can OC on your own property. the problem is, as with most problems regarding OC, the opinions of whatever LEOs respond to a "man with a gun" call.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. "No firearms" signs on private property in WA.
    By wildfire adn in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: December 1st, 2009, 10:19 AM
  2. Concealed Carry and Private Property
    By Strokin99 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: August 2nd, 2008, 11:36 AM
  3. Right To Carry On State Property
    By Wolf357 in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: January 24th, 2008, 04:35 PM
  4. Carrying a firearm on private property where prohibited? (CT)
    By RiptheJacker in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: August 7th, 2007, 11:18 AM
  5. CCW on my private property?? -Texas
    By gamboolman in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: July 16th, 2006, 05:34 PM

Search tags for this page

ca firearm carry private property
,
can you carry a gun on your property in minnesota?
,
carry firearm on own property iowa
,
louisiana open carry private property
,
michigan open carry on private property
,
open carry a firearm on your own property in mn
,
open carry in california on private property
,

open carry on private property

,
open carry private property
,
private lamd open carry mi
,

thoughts on private property carrying iowa

,
what places you cannot open carry in louisiana
Click on a term to search for related topics.