An observation, and a polite request.

An observation, and a polite request.

This is a discussion on An observation, and a polite request. within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Nelson Muntz Sir, I joined this forum last year, when I thought Defensive Carry meant any type of carry - as long ...

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Thread: An observation, and a polite request.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    An observation, and a polite request.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson Muntz View Post
    Sir,

    I joined this forum last year, when I thought Defensive Carry meant any type of carry - as long as you were carrying. I quickly found out that my discussion of OC was inappropriate and unwanted on the forum. I only came back recently because I heard that an OC discussion area had been made available.

    I respected the fact that OC talk was not appreciated in the forum overall, and I would hope that CC only folks would also respect this space as an OC talk spot.

    I'm not saying CC only folks shouldn't come in this section and not participate and contribute, I also occassionally contribute in other areas if they interest me, but that if you all post in here you should at least participate in the spirit of it. Ask questions if you all have any. Share experiences if you have any. But do NOT talk down to Open Carriers, here or otherwise. If I'm wrong, the Big Bumper can bump my ass right on outta here. But I suspect I'm not.

    This is the spot to "discuss OC in those states where it is legal to do so and is not meant to debate the virtues of OC vs CC."

    No harm, no foul.
    My wife has Psoriasis, a non-communicable skin disease. There is a forum, at National Psoriasis Foundation. This forum has many members, and basically two camps. Those who believe in homeopathic medicine, and those who believe in biological medicine.

    This OC vs. CC thing reminds me a lot of that argument. My wife, and a lot of others left that forum. I would hate to see anything remotely like that happen here.

    I've always viewed the idea of defensive carry, as encompassing all forms of legal carry. After all, whether we carry concealed, or openly, we are exercising our right to keep and bear arms. We should be on the same side. But I would be hard pressed to believe it sometimes.

    I don't think any of us who are pro-OC would tell those who prefer to CC, that CC puts you at a "tactical disadvantage" in that it slows down your draw. Or that it makes you a potential target, since the BGs will think you're unarmed, and therefore more likely to attack you to rob/rape/murder, or do whatever.

    So, how about we respond to the title of the threads, and stop interjecting our personal preferences for CC or OC, unless specifically asked?

    Thank you for your thoughtful consideration.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Actually IIRC Bumper has allowed an OC forum to start for people who wish to talk about OC and their state laws etc.
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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    I've always viewed the idea of defensive carry, as encompassing all forms of legal carry. After all, whether we carry concealed, or openly, we are exercising our right to keep and bear arms. We should be on the same side. But I would be hard pressed to believe it sometimes.

    I don't think any of us who are pro-OC would tell those who prefer to CC, that CC puts you at a "tactical disadvantage" in that it slows down your draw. Or that it makes you a potential target, since the BGs will think you're unarmed, and therefore more likely to attack you to rob/rape/murder, or do whatever.

    So, how about we respond to the title of the threads, and stop interjecting our personal preferences for CC or OC, unless specifically asked?

    Thank you for your thoughtful consideration.
    I understand that you do not want acrimonious attacks and division here. We have often seen the OC/CC debate devolve into childish name calling, requiring the moderators to intervene and take action against the most egregious offenses. I, too, do not want to see our common cause unduly harmed by internal strife.

    However, many people are unaware of the issues associated with the two method of carry. One of the best methods to educate readers is to engage in a spirited debate. For example, you claim that it is an advantage that you can draw more quickly from open rather than concealed. Can you provide statistically significant data to support that claim or is that simply intuition? Further, can you show any real life scenatios where a life was saved because of this non proven draw speed advantage?

    I wrote that as a rhetorical question. I do not want that debate here and now. I only wanted to show that these debates are valuable and do not have to devolve into the two divisive camps we often encounter.

    Bumper was quite explicit regarding his mission for this forum, which precludes any CC/OC virtues and drawbacks discussions. (Although you brought it up. ) Personally, I think such discussions help the community understand the differing viewpoints and make informed decisions as to the mode of carry best suited to their personal situations.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    I wonder how many folks confuse the OC/CC with OWB and IWB? Just a thought...
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    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    I joined this forum due to it's merit in many aspects of self defense and home defense (which "technically" is not "defensive carry") I have learned a lot, even on open carry on this forum before the recent addition. In my opinion defensive carry (not Defensive Carry or defensivecarry) is any tool carried in any manner to provide for ones self defense on the defense of others as deemed necessary by each individual.

    This is mostly a very cordial forum and even with the occasional caliber, OC/CC, etc wars (which appropriately get squashed) I enjoy it.

    Hats off to the MODs and staff for their benvolence in protecting us from ourselves and letting us devolve into a bunch of squabbling ninnies.

    Thanks again!
    goldmaster likes this.
    rolyat63
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Actually IIRC Bumper has allowed an OC forum to start for people who wish to talk about OC and their state laws etc.
    Well, uh, pardon me for saying this but, uh, DOH!!! I posted this in the OC Forum.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I understand that you do not want acrimonious attacks and division here. We have often seen the OC/CC debate devolve into childish name calling, requiring the moderators to intervene and take action against the most egregious offenses. I, too, do not want to see our common cause unduly harmed by internal strife.

    However, many people are unaware of the issues associated with the two method of carry. One of the best methods to educate readers is to engage in a spirited debate. For example, you claim that it is an advantage that you can draw more quickly from open rather than concealed. Can you provide statistically significant data to support that claim or is that simply intuition? Further, can you show any real life scenatios where a life was saved because of this non proven draw speed advantage?

    I wrote that as a rhetorical question. I do not want that debate here and now. I only wanted to show that these debates are valuable and do not have to devolve into the two divisive camps we often encounter.

    Bumper was quite explicit regarding his mission for this forum, which precludes any CC/OC virtues and drawbacks discussions. (Although you brought it up. ) Personally, I think such discussions help the community understand the differing viewpoints and make informed decisions as to the mode of carry best suited to their personal situations.
    Yeah, I brought it up, because it keeps popping up. Along with the myth that OC makes you a target for the bad guys.

    Most of the discussions here are peppered with comments like "Concealed means concealed." and "I don't want to give up the element of surprise." and so on.

    I think, most of us have heard this so many times, I honestly do not believe we need to be reminded.

    I'm just asking for a little bit more understanding, on this issue. And, try to keep the responses relative to the question/original post, that's all.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    I wonder how many folks confuse the OC/CC with OWB and IWB? Just a thought...
    I'm sure, more than a few. Just like some who think that using an IWB holster is unconcealed. Depending on your state's laws, they may consider any pistol in an IWB holster as "concealed" even if the upper part is uncovered, thus requiring you to have a permit.

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    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Personally I advocate that every legal and able bodied person "carry", weather that be OC, CC, IWB, OWB, ankle, shoulder rig, belly band, smart carry, even those very expensive compression shirts with the pockets built in under the arm pit, just not Mexican carry as that is not as safe.
    shockwave, Al Lowe and DaveH like this.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    I'm just asking for a little bit more understanding, on this issue. And, try to keep the responses relative to the question/original post, that's all.
    I'm with SelfDefense on this one. (Hm, imagine that! ) Debate of pros/cons, even a spirited debate, can result in learning. Can't learn what you don't know with mind completely closed to alternatives. And you can't evaluate alternatives unless and until you see them from another point of view. Hence, the value of debate. Dragged via the nose ring, perhaps, but debate.

    I'd prefer a bit more understanding as well. Hence, debating the pros/cons, 'cause we can't possibly all know what's true. Even then, what works for me might well not work for you, considering variation in body shapes/sizes, degree of fitness/flexibility, how tightly one's clothing fits, how low/deep one's holster is worn, the degree and variation of training one has, &c.

    The good news? We've got an OC forum, where plenty of folks will be able to engage in suitable discussions on both sites of the "fence" that exists between the two modes of carry. All to the good, IMO.
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    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paco View Post
    Personally I advocate that every legal and able bodied person "carry", weather that be OC, CC, IWB, OWB, ankle, shoulder rig, belly band, smart carry, even those very expensive compression shirts with the pockets built in under the arm pit, just not Mexican carry as that is not as safe.
    +1 on that. That's my basic attitude.

    I know OC is not for everyone. And I certainly would not push that everyone should OC. By the same token, I would expect others to respect my choice to OC, and not constantly berate me for doing so. You can leave the berating to the cops who stop me and are totally ignorant of the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I'm with SelfDefense on this one. (Hm, imagine that! ) Debate of pros/cons, even a spirited debate, can result in learning. Can't learn what you don't know with mind completely closed to alternatives. And you can't evaluate alternatives unless and until you see them from another point of view. Hence, the value of debate. Dragged via the nose ring, perhaps, but debate.

    I'd prefer a bit more understanding as well. Hence, debating the pros/cons, 'cause we can't possibly all know what's true. Even then, what works for me might well not work for you, considering variation in body shapes/sizes, degree of fitness/flexibility, how tightly one's clothing fits, how low/deep one's holster is worn, the degree and variation of training one has, &c.

    The good news? We've got an OC forum, where plenty of folks will be able to engage in suitable discussions on both sites of the "fence" that exists between the two modes of carry. All to the good, IMO.
    I don't mind debate, but I think that should be in a thread designated as such. When someone asks advice on how to OC, I do not want to see a bunch of posts in that thread advising against it. That's my point. Now, if someone asks whether or not to OC, or, would you OC, if it were legal, that's a different matter. Ok?

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    ... and not constantly berate me for doing so. You can leave the berating to the cops who stop me and are totally ignorant of the law.
    Well, that's exactly the point. Debate can lead to understanding, through tossing up competing opinions and viewpoints and then seeing what "sticks." Minus outright berating, discussion of various viewpoints has value.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; November 14th, 2008 at 10:13 AM. Reason: spelling
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Well, that's exactly the point. Debate can lead to understanding, though tossing up competing opinions and viewpoints, and then seeing what "sticks." Minus outright berating, discussion of various viewpoints has value.
    Works for me.

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    Member Array Slabsides45's Avatar
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    Aw, c'mon, maybe just a LITTLE berating, thrown in to add spice?

    Oh, okay, fine, no berating.

    I suspect many on here are like me, and don't care how you opt to carry. I can admit I'm a slower draw from concealment if you can admit you're a great distraction while I'm drawing... As long as each of us has his or her own preference met, it's all good.

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    While I choose not to most of the time, I respect people that OC. You OCers have an even higher responsibility (because of visibility)to the 2a brotherhood to uphold our image in public. I think that the more people that OC responsibly, the better off we are in the long run.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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