Another GA OC incident

This is a discussion on Another GA OC incident within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "The report doesn't say that he refused to identify himself. It says that he refused to show a tangible piece of ID." and that is ...

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Thread: Another GA OC incident

  1. #16
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    "The report doesn't say that he refused to identify himself. It says that he refused to show a tangible piece of ID."

    and that is failing to identify yourself. It was when I worked the streets in uniform and I'm sure it hasn't changed since then. Verbally stating who you are may be accepted as identification but the officers are well within their rights to ask for a form of identification to verify that which may have been spoken verbally.

    "Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself,"

    Refuses to identify seems pretty clear to me which according to the above warrants "alarm".

    When you are asked to identify yourself at town hall, or the registry of motor vehicles, or any place else, is giving your name verbally accepted? No, it's not, they are asking for a form of identification when that request is made.

    "Either way "a man with a gun" is not a crime any more than "a man with a car." What were they investigating?"

    Perhaps his motive for attempting entry into the building? His mindset and overall cognitive abilities [ to determine if he might be on meds, drunk, mentally impaired, etc which are all real possibles based on prior work in the field by officers ].

    Their response starts an field investigation, first with the complainant who called, maybe witnesses at the scene and then the subject of the complaint.

    They write a report based on their investigation and field inquiries. Again, the police didn't just stop the man on a public way, they were called and responded to a complaint. Well within their rights to determine his state of mind based on some articulable action that caused someone to be alarmed and call the police.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    I read threads on the forum day in and day out about traffic stops. Guys will voluntary turn over their permits to LEO's when stopped even when they haven't been asked or required by law. They get pats on the back, congrats and "good job" posts from fellow forum members.
    In this case, OCing at the mall the young man is asked for his permit, he refuses and goes to jail. Now, some how he is a 2A & 4A hero standing up for his rights.
    I may be incorrect but there seems to be a slight contradiction here in the 2A community. Please help me understand this, the rules of the game are; when asked deny, but surrender when not asked?
    I believe a unified front with all on the same page is a stronger front.
    Thats why in a earlyer post I stated " not helpful".
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  4. #18
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    I don't want to be hassled by LE, but this guy could have easily defused the situation by quickly showing ID.
    Pretty simple...
    Seems like this guy wanted to make a 'situation'...and apparently has done it before...why?

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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    so, say you go for a walk, OC there are cops at every street corner you think they have RAS or PC to stop and detain and retrieve ID at ever intersection???

    the problem here is no law was broken as there is no stop and identify yourself statute.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


    notice the amendment/\ papers are ID's ;)


    since the supremem court reject the arguement their is a gun exception to the 4th amendment, and the place is not off limits. this went well beyond a consensual encounter
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array mzmtg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAT40 View Post
    I read threads on the forum day in and day out about traffic stops. Guys will voluntary turn over their permits to LEO's when stopped even when they haven't been asked or required by law. They get pats on the back, congrats and "good job" posts from fellow forum members.
    I am not one of those.

    I will not volunteer the fact that I am armed during a traffic stop and I would not encourage others to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Perhaps his motive for attempting entry into the building?
    He was "attempting" to enter the building to shop at the mall. "No guns" signs and policies hold no legal weight in GA. Ignoring them is not a crime.

    Plus, the fact remains, that he was "attempting" to comply with the "no guns" policy when the police intercepted him.

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I don't want to be hassled by LE, but this guy could have easily defused the situation by quickly showing ID.
    Pretty simple...
    Seems like this guy wanted to make a 'situation'...and apparently has done it before...why?

    There's being right, and there's being right to a fault...
    Standing up for one's rights, even when difficult, is more important than "diffusing the situation." The police created the situation by demanding ID when they had no legal reason to do so. The innocent man legally carrying a gun is in NO way at fault here.

  7. #21
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    "He was "attempting" to enter the building to shop at the mall. "No guns" signs and policies hold no legal weight in GA. Ignoring them is not a crime."

    Given the atmosphere and prior shootings at malls, schools etc in the country, there is certainly probable cause to investigate his intentions after the police were dispatched on a complaint. If he put someone in fear of jeopardy by his attempt to enter the mall against the signs just because they may hold not legal weight, the cops have every right to investigate his reason for being at that place and time and to know who they are talking to during a field inquiry.

    "The police created the situation by demanding ID when they had no legal reason to do so."

    They had the legal right to detain him and determine his identity. I've stated why they had the right to do so three times now. A field inquiry legal when called to respond to someone's concern regarding his intentions to ignore the sign and not comply with the land owner/building owner/tenants request.

    It's not a big leap for some nut job to enter the mall, ignoring the restricted access with a firearm, and start shooting people as it's happened several times in the last few years.

    The GeorgiaCarry.Org site clearly states on the first page that:

    "GeorgiaCarry.Org is Georgia's no-compromise voice for gun owners".

    No compromise, that's an interesting concept, but a somewhat impractical mindset. The founders of the constitution "compromised" with each other in drafting the constitution and found this country, yet you folks at GeorgiaCarry feel "no compromise" is reasonable?

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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    "He was "attempting" to enter the building to shop at the mall. "No guns" signs and policies hold no legal weight in GA. Ignoring them is not a crime."

    Given the atmosphere and prior shootings at malls, schools etc in the country, there is certainly probable cause to investigate his intentions after the police were dispatched on a complaint. If he put someone in fear of jeopardy by his attempt to enter the mall against the signs just because they may hold not legal weight, the cops have every right to investigate his reason for being at that place and time and to know who they are talking to during a field inquiry.

    "The police created the situation by demanding ID when they had no legal reason to do so."

    They had the legal right to detain him and determine his identity. I've stated why they had the right to do so three times now. A field inquiry legal when called to respond to someone's concern regarding his intentions to ignore the sign and not comply with the land owner/building owner/tenants request.

    It's not a big leap for some nut job to enter the mall, ignoring the restricted access with a firearm, and start shooting people as it's happened several times in the last few years.

    The GeorgiaCarry.Org site clearly states on the first page that:

    "GeorgiaCarry.Org is Georgia's no-compromise voice for gun owners". No compromise, that's an interesting concept, but a somewhat impractical mindset. The founders of the constitution "compromised" with each other in drafting the constitution and found this country, yet you folks at GeorgiaCarry feel "no compromise" is reasonable?

    Brownie



    no we are not arizona and dont have a stop and identify yourself statue

    and certainly not Nevada as in the case of Hibbel v Nevada

    the Nevada Supreme Court has interpreted the instant statute to require only that a suspect disclose his name. It apparently does not require him to produce a driver’s license or any other document. If he chooses either to state his name or communicate it to the officer by other means, the statute is satisfied and no violation occurs. Pp. 3—6.

    they didnt want a name they demanded ID, not the same
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  9. #23
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    "they didnt want a name they demanded ID, not the same"

    That's reasonable, considering all the people I arrested who used false names as their real name who were wanted on warrants and didn't have ID's on them, and were later identified as their real self through fingerprinting.

    "no we are not arizona and dont have a stop and identify yourself statue"

    One more time, a field inquiry based on a complaint is not the same as a stop without reasonable cause.

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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    There's being right, and there's being right to a fault...
    I am not going to volunteer to be anybody's test case anytime soon, nor do I wish to spend a night in the county lock-up with Bubba for making such a point. That said, pretty much everybody benefits from those who are willing to take the risk to demonstrate exactly how far their rights extend.

    This isn't a gun issue. The guy who got arrested for failing to provide ID when Circuit City called the cops on him for ignoring the "Loss Prevention" corn-holing on the way out was in the same boat. That is, we live in a country where, by and large, one cannot be required to produce ID when no suspicion of a crime exists.

    Ignoring stupid corporate policies that do not carry the force of law is not now, now should it ever become, suspicion of a crime. If business owners prefer to do without the money of those members of the public unwilling to jump through their hoops, so be it, but there is no reason for cops to be called. Frankly, when this guy gets done with his criminal court case, I hope he sues the mall security for harassment.
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  11. #25
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    "That is, we live in a country where, by and large, one cannot be required to produce ID when no suspicion of a crime exists."

    Suspicion of ones intent and motives to violate policy is enough cause to invoke a field inquiry, whether a crime has been committed or not.

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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzmtg View Post
    I am not one of those.

    I will not volunteer the fact that I am armed during a traffic stop and I would not encourage others to do so.



    He was "attempting" to enter the building to shop at the mall. "No guns" signs and policies hold no legal weight in GA. Ignoring them is not a crime.

    Plus, the fact remains, that he was "attempting" to comply with the "no guns" policy when the police intercepted him.



    Standing up for one's rights, even when difficult, is more important than "diffusing the situation." The police created the situation by demanding ID when they had no legal reason to do so. The innocent man legally carrying a gun is in NO way at fault here.
    The "innocent" man was a fool. He was trespassing when he ignored the sign (that has no legal standing in Ga. what a MORONIC thing to say) and when the police arrived they were absolutely correct in what they did. If you put a "no trespassing" sign up, and a group of twentysomethings came over to have a picnic in your yard, would you have a cow? Maybe they could just say "that sign has no legal standing". I HAVE A RIGHT!

    What seems to be completely lost in these incidents, is that our RIGHTS also carry RESPONSIBILITIES. The "innocent man" was irresponsible, and now with a record (?) he'll loose his rights.

    By the way, in Texas, when asked by LE for your DL, you are required by law to also show your CHL. Failure to do so will result in the revocation of you CHL. When they run your DL, it also shows your CHL number, so "I forgot" is not an excuse.
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  13. #27
    Senior Member Array mzmtg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJS3 View Post
    The "innocent" man was a fool. He was trespassing when he ignored the sign (that has no legal standing in Ga. what a MORONIC thing to say)
    Read up on trespassing. Ignoring a sign ("no guns", "no trespassing" or otherwise) is NOT trespassing.

    Sticking around after being specifically asked to leave by the owner or owner's representative IS trespassing.

    What the guy in this case was doing is the exact opposite of trespassing (complying with the property owner's wishes by returning his gun to his car).

    Quote Originally Posted by CJS3 View Post
    By the way, in Texas, when asked by LE for your DL, you are required by law to also show your CHL. Failure to do so will result in the revocation of you CHL. When they run your DL, it also shows your CHL number, so "I forgot" is not an excuse.
    We aren't talking about Texas.


    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    One more time, a field inquiry based on a complaint is not the same as a stop without reasonable cause.

    Brownie
    Even if the activity that initiated the complaint is completely legal?

    If I call the cops and complain that some dude is walking down the street carrying a sack of oranges and that scares me, does that give the responding officers the right to shake the orange-carrier down for ID?

  14. #28
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    People don't understand that the mall parking lot is not public property. It is private property held by a corporation. The mall has every right to demand no guns on their premises much as a private citizen has the right to demand certain things in their own home. The sign may not have "legal repercussions" in the state of Georgia, but if he entered the mall with a gun, or was on mall property with a gun, then he is trespassing. The parking lot of a mall is not public property, it is private property, so even walking back to his car armed, he is still tresspassing. I am all for standing up for a persons right to a point. It is no different if I put up a no solicitors sign on my front door, and a magazine salesman ignores the sign and harasses me to buy a magazine. I am gonna be mad as heck, and I will call the police, just like the mall did. The mall is not public property, it is not a place to test your rights, much like a personal residence is not the time or place for a visitor to test their rights on your property. This guy deserves to be arrested. There was a call for someone with a gun, the police responded, this wasn't some random drive-by cop stopping people at random. This man was on private property, yes the parking lot is private property, he was carrying a gun in an area where the owner of the property has decided he doesn't want guns, and the security guards called the police. The security guards for all intents and purposes are by being hired, designated by the owner or manager of the mall to act in the best interest of the owners on security issues. Had this man been on the sidewalk, open carrying, well it is a different case. However, he was in the parking lot, which is private property, the police were called, and they stopped the man carrying a gun on private property against the wishes of the owners of said property. Seems to me like an open and shut case. To say the signs have no legal standing in the state of Gerigia seems like a pretty narrow-minded, one-sided answer. These signs carry just as much weight as a no trespassing sign on your personal property carries. Some guy open carrying, decided to stroll across my front lawn, I am gonna call the cops. The parking is the same for the owners of that property as my lawn is for me. By looking into this, I highly doubt that we are getting the whole story. I am betting that this guy is only telling exactly what he would like people to hear. I would bet any amount of money, this guy had words with the security staff, and most likely made a scene. I highly doubt he simply said OK, and walked back to his car.
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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array mzmtg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaystekan View Post
    However, he was in the parking lot, which is private property, the police were called, and they stopped the man carrying a gun on private property against the wishes of the owners of said property.
    No, they didn't.

    They stopped a man on private property attempting to comply with the wishes of the property owner.

    The guard stopped him at the door and told him to put his gun in his car. He was walking back to his car to do that when the police interfered.

    At no point the the guards ask him to leave the property, therefore, at no point was he trespassing.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaystekan View Post
    There was a call for someone with a gun, the police responded, this wasn't some random drive-by cop stopping people at random.

    this time it wasnt, but what about the other times it was when it happened? twice to me to me personally????

    at some point you gotta say enough, someone calling if your doing nothing illegal is just that. no probable cause of anything.
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