Another GA OC incident - Page 20

Another GA OC incident

This is a discussion on Another GA OC incident within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AzQkr Deanimator, After doing some digging, I find the following: You state you own a Browning High Power and 1911 Single Action ...

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  1. #286
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Deanimator,

    After doing some digging, I find the following:

    You state you own a Browning High Power and 1911 Single Action here:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...tml#post985272

    You state elsewhere you have a 36 no dash and a 3" model 65 also.

    Go buy your own gun, you can afford to carry a small auto in the pocket of your running shorts. It beats having nothing, whether you think the 380 is adequate or not [ which you mention in another thread ].

    From another post, #80 in this thread:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...tml#post981687

    And if they're going to stop me for going 1mph over the speed limit, I'm going to MAKE them prove in court that 1) their equipment is accurate to that standard 2) it is reasonably technically possible for me to achieve that standard in a typical automobile, especially one with an analog speedometer. If they CANNOT do that then I'm going to sue them as individuals for harassment and false arrest and put them and their families out in the cold, which is approaching 20deg. here.

    A speeding ticket is a civil infraction at 1mph over the speed limit. You would not be arrested without some other circumstance subsequent to the stop. You'd also not be able to sue them or their families for harassment as you suggest. I find your attitude toward LE somewhat lacking in objectivity and biased toward looking for things to take LE to task at every turn. In support of that thought, I present this post in support of that premise:

    I WISH some cop here would do any of those things to me. I'd have enough money to MAKE a feature film, nevermind watch one.

    taken from this thread in post 68:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...theater-7.html

    You "wish" some cop would do those things to you? Interesting mindset and suggestive in it's content where further subjective thinking toward LE is concerned.

    This statement "I confess I just don't get the argument that a J-frame Smith is so "big" or "heavy" that you won't carry it. I carry full sized autos or a 3" K frame IWB EVERY time I leave the house, with a Smith 36 carried in a pocket holster occasionally. I have NEVER not carried because any of them were too "bulky". in this thread

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...tec-ccw-5.html

    As we see in the bolded text, you've contradicted yourself between that thread post and this thread where carrying outside the house [ that would include jogging as well, of course ]

    I found many other posts from you since you joined this forum on Oct 6th 2006 that suggest your propensity to discredit LE when an opportunity presented itself with some also suggesting your thoughts about putting LE out in dumpsters, etc if they somehow offended your sense of right and wrong. You are certainly NOT objective in your views of that profession here or elsewhere on this forum. Hence, your posts will be taken with a grain of salt based on your lack of knowledge of that profession and your propensity to be subjective in nature where LE is concerned the majority of time on this forum.

    How's that for a little "investigative" work tonight sir.?

    Brownie
    I have no problem carrying 2" J frame in NORMAL CLOTHING. It would pull my shorts OFF.

    I find it highly ironic that you would talk about someone being "facetious".

    I expect the police to obey the law, whether it be not demanding things they have no legal authority to demand, or committing violent crimes. A lot of people don't like that.


  2. #287
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    But the fact remains you made three excuses for NOT carrying a gun when you are in T and shorts until this morning. Now a fourth, the gun would pull your shorts OFF when you've stated in another thread you carry "EVERY time I leave the house", which is obviously not true.

    I expect the police to obey the law, whether it be not demanding things they have no legal authority to demand, or committing violent crimes. A lot of people don't like that.

    I expect the same thing as well as any other member on this forum probably does. However, you don't see the majority of the members here "wishing" some cop would do something against the law so they could "have enough money to MAKE a feature film, nevermind watch one." or have that officer living out of a dumpster, or "sue them as individuals for harassment and false arrest and put them and their families out in the cold, which is approaching 20deg. here."

    You're right, a lot of people don't like it when there is interaction with a police officer. I suspect the majority of them don't like being arrested, or going to jail, or serving time. The jails are filled with people who proclaim they didn't do anything wrong and they were wrongfully accused. The prisons are filled with jail house lawyers [ or in this case forum lawyers ] who think they know the law as well. The fact remains, there they sit proclaiming all those things for years.

    You write things like

    "And if they're going to stop me for going 1mph over the speed limit, I'm going to MAKE them prove in court that 1) their equipment is accurate to that standard 2) it is reasonably technically possible for me to achieve that standard in a typical automobile, especially one with an analog speedometer. If they CANNOT do that then I'm going to sue them as individuals for harassment and false arrest and put them and their families out in the cold, which is approaching 20deg. here."

    You may write these types of posts to make yourself feel better somehow, but the fact remains you wouldn't be putting an officer or their families out in the cold or winning any lawsuits against them individually for a traffic ticket [ a civil infraction ].

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  3. #288
    JD
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  4. #289
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    But the fact remains you made three excuses for NOT carrying a gun when you are in T and shorts until this morning. Now a fourth, the gun would pull your shorts OFF when you've stated in another thread you carry "EVERY time I leave the house", which is obviously not true.

    I expect the police to obey the law, whether it be not demanding things they have no legal authority to demand, or committing violent crimes. A lot of people don't like that.

    I expect the same thing as well as any other member on this forum probably does. However, you don't see the majority of the members here "wishing" some cop would do something against the law so they could "have enough money to MAKE a feature film, nevermind watch one." or have that officer living out of a dumpster, or "sue them as individuals for harassment and false arrest and put them and their families out in the cold, which is approaching 20deg. here."

    You're right, a lot of people don't like it when there is interaction with a police officer. I suspect the majority of them don't like being arrested, or going to jail, or serving time. The jails are filled with people who proclaim they didn't do anything wrong and they were wrongfully accused. The prisons are filled with jail house lawyers [ or in this case forum lawyers ] who think they know the law as well. The fact remains, there they sit proclaiming all those things for years.

    You write things like

    "And if they're going to stop me for going 1mph over the speed limit, I'm going to MAKE them prove in court that 1) their equipment is accurate to that standard 2) it is reasonably technically possible for me to achieve that standard in a typical automobile, especially one with an analog speedometer. If they CANNOT do that then I'm going to sue them as individuals for harassment and false arrest and put them and their families out in the cold, which is approaching 20deg. here."

    You may write these types of posts to make yourself feel better somehow, but the fact remains you wouldn't be putting an officer or their families out in the cold or winning any lawsuits against them individually for a traffic ticket [ a civil infraction ].

    Brownie
    It is your obvious intent to get this thread closed in order to stifle legitimate criticism of police misconduct. I'm not playing.

  5. #290
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    It is your obvious intent to get this thread closed in order to stifle legitimate criticism of police misconduct.

    More subterfuge from you again I see

    Obvious intent? How about the obvious intent of your posts in this and another couple of posts I brought to the members attention about badmouthing LE in general? How about your intent to create an atmosphere here through your postings like "If they CANNOT do that then I'm going to sue them as individuals for harassment and false arrest and put them and their families out in the cold, which is approaching 20deg. here." when you wouldn't be able to do either [ sue or put them out in the cold ]. How about the mention of their families that you think you'd make suffer these fantastical rantings? Think the wife and kids of an officer deserve that attitude and overt threat on an open forum when they had nothing to do with some interaction between you and an officer?

    As I mentioned:

    "I expect the same thing as well as any other member on this forum probably does. However, you don't see the majority of the members here "wishing" some cop would do something against the law so they could "have enough money to MAKE a feature film, nevermind watch one." or have that officer living out of a dumpster, or "sue them as individuals for harassment and false arrest and put them and their families out in the cold, which is approaching 20deg. here."

    Wishing some LE officer broke the law so you could make money? You sir are the one who needs to calm to F**K down on the attitude about LE in general and stop your slanderous general remarks about LE. I can guarantee you that if you don't I'll be in your space in short order now that you're on my radar screen.

    I'm not about to stifle legitimate criticism of LE here, but I'm also not going to stand by and watch you rant about how you WISH some cop would break the law so you could sue them, nor will I stand by while you post things that would never happen based on a civil infraction of a traffic stop.

    You've been called on your BS by someone who has lived through years of having dealt with personalities as you exhibit here on the streets [ and those people were articulated right into cells and then jails more often than not ]. Now that you've been called on it, and can't defend your subjective, rants of things you'd do to LE if you felt they were wrong which you could never do [ and that's based on actual street experience of 28 years ].

    Get off the soapbox, stand down a little on the rantings of what you'd do to LE if you thought they had not followed the law. You ain't no lawyer, and from your posts it appears you don't have much of a clue about how the system works either. Run up against some street smart cop, and he'll articulate you all the way to hell and back in the courts. You'd be eaten up in the 'system" very quickly with the attitude you possess here.

    Brownie
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  6. #291
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    1. Obey all applicable laws in your jurisdiction. If you must carry ID to carry concealed or to open carry, do so.

    2. If your particular situation does not require you to carry ID, if you don't want to, DON'T. Anyone who tells you that's "obstructing" an investigation is lying to you.

    3. If your particular situation does not require you to show ID, if you don't want to, DON'T. Anyone who tells you that's "obstructing" an investigation is lying to you.

    4. If your particular situation requires you to verbally give name and address, DO SO. Anyone who tells you that's "obstructing" an investigation is lying to you.

    4. Never, EVER forget the words "Officer, am I free to leave?" If the answer is 'yes', LEAVE. If the answer is "no":

    5. Ask, "Of what crime am I suspected, Officer?" If the cops tells you an offense, or refuses to answer:

    6. Say, "I have nothing further to say without my attorney present."

    7. Refuse consent for ALL searches. State clearly, "Officer, I refuse consent to any searches." If police attempt to search against your will, do not resist. Remember or write down everything in the greatest detail possible, especially dates, times, names and badge numbers.

    8. If police engage in clearly unlawful activity, request a field supervisor be brought to the location. Continue to remain SILENT. Assert your rights. If the police willfully violate those rights, don't argue with them.

    9. If your rights have been violated, do not allow yourself to be bullied into being a victim. Pursue administrative, criminal and civil remedies. Do not let a cop hide behind his family to escape the consequences of his unlawful CHOICES. A cop who violates your rights is a criminal. Nobody cares about the economic impact to a crack dealer's family if he goes to prison or has his assets civilly forfeited. Nobody should let the police commit criminal acts with impunity. You can't "beat the ride", but they can't beat the civil judgement and the Sheriff's sale.

    10. You will have police as good as you require them to be. Hold them to a high standard and you will have police of which you can be proud. Hold them to a low or no standard and you will eventually have a police force indistinguishable from a Somali militia. You can have police who investigate home invasions or police who perpetrate them. The choice is YOURS.

  7. #292
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    Frivolous Lawsuits

    Frivolous lawsuits affect all of us. Frivolous lawsuits clog the court systems, taking time away from the "real" cases. While everyone does have the right to sue anyone else, some people take this to extremes, bringing about frivolous lawsuits in hopes of a big lawsuit payday. Frivolous lawsuits are a part of the much more complex arena of lawsuit abuse where tort reform may be needed for rational justice to take place.


    Montana - Pentalty for Personal Injury for Filing Frivolous Lawsuits

    Here in Montana when I was an LEO I could tie a person up for years in Civil Court over being such a frivolous lawsuit. Hell if I wasn't getting a claim filed against me I wasn't doing my job.

    We learn how to deal with extremist
    Officer Safety and Extremists: An Overview for Law Enforcement Officers

    I've delt with the Freeman before and when I left the job, the file was left in my desk at the office.

    As I told the last extremist that I stopped on Hwy 87 here in Montana, you want to suit me... bring it on.

    deaminator sounds like he's part of some Sovereign Citizen Movement that views himself apart from reality. This is the very same kind of ideoligy that helps LEO's develop an attitude of us and them. deaminator your disdain for law enforcement in general has spoke reams here.

    As an ex-LEO you make me sick with your comments thinking your going to own some cop and his family, dream on.
    10mm Rocks

    Never argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

  8. #293
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I have been ask for my Id by a LEO before and see no reason not to comply. to me it's not a big deal. I figure it helps him to do his job by knowing what is going on. In a case like this I do not feel my rights are being violated. There is a difference between harassed and being ask for ID. If it is harassment then take it up with your lawyer.
    Last edited by Tom G; January 29th, 2009 at 03:56 PM. Reason: add

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMontana View Post
    Frivolous Lawsuits

    Frivolous lawsuits affect all of us. Frivolous lawsuits clog the court systems, taking time away from the "real" cases. While everyone does have the right to sue anyone else, some people take this to extremes, bringing about frivolous lawsuits in hopes of a big lawsuit payday. Frivolous lawsuits are a part of the much more complex arena of lawsuit abuse where tort reform may be needed for rational justice to take place.


    Montana - Pentalty for Personal Injury for Filing Frivolous Lawsuits

    Here in Montana when I was an LEO I could tie a person up for years in Civil Court over being such a frivolous lawsuit. Hell if I wasn't getting a claim filed against me I wasn't doing my job.

    We learn how to deal with extremist
    Officer Safety and Extremists: An Overview for Law Enforcement Officers

    I've delt with the Freeman before and when I left the job, the file was left in my desk at the office.

    As I told the last extremist that I stopped on Hwy 87 here in Montana, you want to suit me... bring it on.

    deaminator sounds like he's part of some Sovereign Citizen Movement that views himself apart from reality. This is the very same kind of ideoligy that helps LEO's develop an attitude of us and them. deaminator your disdain for law enforcement in general has spoke reams here.

    As an ex-LEO you make me sick with your comments thinking your going to own some cop and his family, dream on.
    1. What IS a "frivolous" lawsuit?

    2. You don't seem to think that EVERYBODY should obey the law. Why exactly should police NOT be required to obey the law? Do you consider a two tier justice system, cops and everyone else, a desirable condition?

    3. As far as "owning" people, the family of Michael Pleasance owns Detective Alvin Weems, lock, stock and barrel. No doubt Karolyna Obrycka will be a major stockholder in Anthony Abbate's hide. Indeed that enrages a number of cops. Life's just full of its little tragedies, I guess.

    One more time:

    Committing a crime is a CHOICE, whether you're a crack dealer or a cop.

    Choices have CONSEQUENCES, sometimes consequences that affect others than those who make them.

    As they say in the Marine Corps, "Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid." Willfully violating somebody's rights is stupid and if you do it to the wrong person, your life can get VERY hard indeed. But as we used to say in the 2nd Infantry Division, "Let your conscience be your guide." It won't be ME explaining to your wife and kids why you're living in her mother's basement.

  10. #295
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    4. Never, EVER forget the words "Officer, am I free to leave?" If the answer is 'yes', LEAVE. If the answer is "no":

    5. Ask, "Of what crime am I suspected, Officer?" If the cops tells you an offense, or refuses to answer:

    6. Say, "I have nothing further to say without my attorney present."


    You can be cuffed and placed in my cruiser, not be free to leave at that time, and still not be under arrest. You have no recourse against an officer who articulates he did so for his own safety based on the totality of curcumstances and he doesn't have to tell you JACK SQUAT .

    7. Refuse consent for ALL searches. State clearly, "Officer, I refuse consent to any searches." If police attempt to search against your will, do not resist. Remember or write down everything in the greatest detail possible, especially dates, times, names and badge numbers.

    If I feel you may be a threat to my safety for any reason in the field, I can cuff and search you, place you in my cruiser and then subsequently release you without any recourse based on a field investigation I'm conducting at that time where you are present and may or may not be involved in some illegal activity. Based on subsequent facts discovered, I can take you out of the cage and release you, no harm, no foul.

    You on the other hand can take issue with that action, and will get NOWHERE in the courts if I can articulate why I felt you may be a threat to my safety and may or may not have been involved in some crime yourself or as a conspirator of a crime I was investigating.

    So we see once again in your posts, you don't have the first clue about what an LEO can do to you and to which you have NO RECOURSE but to complain on deaf ears in the end with the courts.

    I'd be very careful what you wish for with an LE encounter, you may just run up against a smart cop who will articulate you through the court system at considerable expense to yourself and then find you aren't as smart as you think relative what that cop could and couldn't do lawfully at that encounter.

    My attitude was always predicated on the streets while performing my duties based on the persons attitude I was talking to. My actions were also at least in part based on that same attitude they exhibited.

    Brownie
    Last edited by JD; January 29th, 2009 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Removed language work around.
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  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    4. Never, EVER forget the words "Officer, am I free to leave?" If the answer is 'yes', LEAVE. If the answer is "no":

    5. Ask, "Of what crime am I suspected, Officer?" If the cops tells you an offense, or refuses to answer:

    6. Say, "I have nothing further to say without my attorney present."


    You can be cuffed and placed in my cruiser, not be free to leave at that time, and still not be under arrest. You have no recourse against an officer who articulates he did so for his own safety based on the totality of curcumstances and he doesn't have to tell you JACK SQUAT .

    7. Refuse consent for ALL searches. State clearly, "Officer, I refuse consent to any searches." If police attempt to search against your will, do not resist. Remember or write down everything in the greatest detail possible, especially dates, times, names and badge numbers.

    If I feel you may be a threat to my safety for any reason in the field, I can cuff and search you, place you in my cruiser and then subsequently release you without any recourse based on a field investigation I'm conducting at that time where you are present and may or may not be involved in some illegal activity. Based on subsequent facts discovered, I can take you out of the cage and release you, no harm, no foul.

    You on the other hand can take issue with that action, and will get NOWHERE in the courts if I can articulate why I felt you may be a threat to my safety and may or may not have been involved in some crime yourself or as a conspirator of a crime I was investigating.

    So we see once again in your posts, you don't have the first clue about what an LEO can do to you and to which you have NO RECOURSE but to complain on deaf ears in the end with the courts.

    Brownie
    You seem enraged that people know their rights.

    You need REASONABLE articulable suspicion. And thereupon your "argument" founders.

    By the way, Ohio is a one party consent state for voice recording. That gets MORE cops who think they're lawyers in trouble...

  12. #297
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    You seem enraged that people know their rights.

    Unfortunately, in your case, you don't appear to be one of those people based on your posts In that regard, you join the ranks of many lay people out there who think they know the law and their rights and don't.

    You need REASONABLE articulable suspicion. And thereupon your "argument" founders.

    You seem to think I don't understand or have experience in how to articulate a reason for my actions after having worked in the field and having lived through it all. That would be another case of your assuming incorrectly that I couldn't reasonably articulate how I felt you were a potential threat to my safety. I know first hand what I need to articulate based on actual experience in these matters. On the other hand you don't.

    Everything I did on the streets in uniform was reasonable because I had a reason for every thing I did while working. I could articulate those reasons in a clear and concise manner to the courts as well.

    By the way, Ohio is a one party consent state for voice recording. That gets MORE cops who think they're lawyers in trouble...

    Which has nothing to do with this discussion and is just more subterfuge from you.

    Brownie
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  13. #298
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    This thread is

    Agreed.


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