Another GA OC incident

This is a discussion on Another GA OC incident within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AzQkr No compromise, that's an interesting concept, but a somewhat impractical mindset. The founders of the constitution "compromised" with each other in ...

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Thread: Another GA OC incident

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array mzmtg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    No compromise, that's an interesting concept, but a somewhat impractical mindset. The founders of the constitution "compromised" with each other in drafting the constitution and found this country, yet you folks at GeorgiaCarry feel "no compromise" is reasonable?

    Brownie
    It's been working pretty well for us so far.

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  3. #32
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    "Read up on trespassing. Ignoring a sign ("no guns", "no trespassing" or otherwise) is NOT trespassing."

    Trespassing signs have to be posted in such a manner that one could not enter the property without seeing one [ in other words close enough to each other to not have been missed ], and if they are posted thusly, you enter and you are automatically presumed trespassing. Look at the land owners who post accordingly by law and can have LE make an arrest without ever talking to that person.

    "If I call the cops and complain that some dude is walking down the street carrying a sack of oranges and that scares me, does that give the responding officers the right to shake the orange-carrier down for ID?"

    We aren't talking about a sack of oranges are we? Sorta like the difference between apples and oranges [ sorta speak ].

    "They stopped a man on private property attempting to comply with the wishes of the property owner."

    You don't know that as a fact. You are taking the word of the person with the gun and do not have the benefit of facts by being present about what the man might have said in response to the guard/s asking him to not enter with the gun. You are assuming facts not in evidence in support of someone who may or may not have made some remark to a guard which affected the phone call to the police.

    Please stick to facts in evidence.

    Brownie
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  4. #33
    Member Array Jaystekan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    +1 mzmtg






    this time it wasnt, but what about the other times it was when it happened? twice to me to me personally????

    at some point you gotta say enough, someone calling if your doing nothing illegal is just that. no probable cause of anything.
    Well, It may have happened to you, but this is the incident in question. I agree some time you have to say enough is enough, and maybe your incidents were that time to say that. However, this is the incident in question.
    Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

  5. #34
    Member Array ekillian's Avatar
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    TITLE 16. CRIMES AND OFFENSES
    CHAPTER 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION
    ARTICLE 2. OBSTRUCTION OF PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION AND RELATED OFFENSES

    O.C.G.A. 16-10-24 (2008)

    16-10-24. Obstructing or hindering law enforcement officers


    (a) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (b) of this Code section, a person who knowingly and willfully obstructs or hinders any law enforcement officer in the lawful discharge of his official duties is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    (b) Whoever knowingly and willfully resists, obstructs, or opposes any law enforcement officer, prison guard, correctional officer, probation supervisor, parole supervisor, or conservation ranger in the lawful discharge of his official duties by offering or doing violence to the person of such officer or legally authorized person is guilty of a felony and shall, upon conviction thereof, be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years.

    This is such an obvious arrest. Do you mind answering and explaing why this fellow would not comply with the authorities? Is there no law in Georgia that says when you get your permit your are automatically consenting to produce it when requested? The guy deserves to be in jail. If he is one of "the good guys" then why is he going around making the job of the LEOs harder than it needs to be? Does he not believe they're on the same team? I wish I was more familiar with Georgia law so I could get into this more in depth but your friend is an idiot and you need to disassociate your perception of how the law reads from how you perceive the law should read.

  6. #35
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    " this time it wasnt, but what about the other times it was when it happened? twice to me to me personally???? "

    Now we're getting to the meat of your posts. You think you have been hasstled, harassed, and had your rights violated in the past so your judgment in this incident is jaded and not objective.

    Got it now, thanks for the insight as to why you have posted so adamantly about this in a subjective manner.

    Brownie
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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array mzmtg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ekillian View Post
    Is there no law in Georgia that says when you get your permit your are automatically consenting to produce it when requested?

    As a matter of fact, NO, there is no such law in GA.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    Is it possible that because of conflicts like this more restrictions and less freedoms could result? Wouldn't want a backfire.
    I support you guys and the fight for our rights in regards to the Second Amendment. Hoping you're picking the battles wisely.
    Is Ga.Carry involved in the legal defence of this guy?
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  9. #38
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    "Is there no law in Georgia that says when you get your permit your are automatically consenting to produce it when requested?"

    I'll bet there is a law that states when questioned by LE in the course of an investigation concerning a firearm incident you will. You can NOT impede an investigation of a complaint lawfully in most jurisdictions.

    You aren't possibly saying impeding an investigation is legal are you?

    Brownie
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  10. #39
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    "Is Ga.Carry involved in the legal defence of this guy?"

    I hope not, they accept no compromise according their website which won't bode well with a judge who will look at this objectively until he sees subjective closed minded behavior from the defense.

    Brownie
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  11. #40
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    "I hope not, they accept no compromise according their website which won't bode well with a judge who will look at this objectively until he sees subjective closed minded behavior from the defense."

    Brownie[/QUOTE]

    Last edited by JAT40; December 19th, 2008 at 09:34 PM.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  12. #41
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    We have a guy here in the county I live in who sounds just like this mall guy. All he lives for is pushing the buttons of cops, city officials, etc. He even has a handful of local bleeding hearts who support him in his assertion that he is being "persecuted" by [fill in the blank] (puh-lease!!).

    He's currently cooling his heels in the county jail for refusing to leave the house of a friend. The friend called the cops to take care of the issue, Mr. Persecuted broke bad with the cop (can you guess he was drunk?!), and got hauled off to the lockup. Now his fellow bleeding heart friend (the one who called LEO in the first place) is crying that he didn't want him arrested or charges filed.

    Open carry is a relatively fresh resurgence of an old practice. It will just take time for people to come around and accept/become accustomed to it. I support OC wholeheartedly, but really wouldn't have a problem producing my permit if asked and I may be asked to one day; my Florida CWP is honored in my home state of Michigan, where they have been able to OC for over a year now.

    At least you fellas can actually OC in GA; it's still just a petition and a dream here in F-L-A.

    It sounds to me as if the conspiracy theorists are the ones trying to carry out the conspiracy (just my honest opinion).

    "When shoes are outlawed, only Iraqi reporters will have shoes."

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    "Read up on trespassing. Ignoring a sign ("no guns", "no trespassing" or otherwise) is NOT trespassing."

    Trespassing signs have to be posted in such a manner that one could not enter the property without seeing one [ in other words close enough to each other to not have been missed ], and if they are posted thusly, you enter and you are automatically presumed trespassing. Look at the land owners who post accordingly by law and can have LE make an arrest without ever talking to that person.

    "If I call the cops and complain that some dude is walking down the street carrying a sack of oranges and that scares me, does that give the responding officers the right to shake the orange-carrier down for ID?"

    We aren't talking about a sack of oranges are we? Sorta like the difference between apples and oranges [ sorta speak ].

    "They stopped a man on private property attempting to comply with the wishes of the property owner."

    You don't know that as a fact. You are taking the word of the person with the gun and do not have the benefit of facts by being present about what the man might have said in response to the guard/s asking him to not enter with the gun. You are assuming facts not in evidence in support of someone who may or may not have made some remark to a guard which affected the phone call to the police.

    Please stick to facts in evidence.

    Brownie


    well I do as the person is my brother, and he is correct he was complying with their request to put it away. also there is no sign at any entrance, esp the one where he entered. and even if there was a sign it would have still been legal to enter the mall armed.
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  14. #43
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    "State v. Jones, 289 Ga.
    App. 176 (2008), which declares that a police officer does not have carte blanche authority to
    secure all weapons at a traffic stop.

    On the issue of whether a firearm, by itself, justifies detaining and investigating a person, there
    are many federal cases addressing the issue. United States v. Ubiles, 224 F.3d 213 (3d Cir.
    2000) declares that possession of a firearm in public, with no other circumstances present, does
    not justify a stop. "For all the officers knew, even assuming the reliability of the tip that Ubiles
    possessed a gun, Ubiles was . . . lawfully exercising his right . . . to possess a gun in public." See
    also United States v. Dudley, 854 F. Supp. 570 (S.D.Ind. 1994), in which the court declared that
    a report of persons with guns did not justify an investigative stop. "In short, the Government
    failed to establish . . . that some reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, based on articulable
    facts, justified this seizure. And, if the stop itself is unlawful, neither Terry nor Michigan v.
    Long authorize the police to search the suspects or the suspect's vehicle for weapons, even if the
    officers reasonably fear for their safety."

    Likewise, the U.S. Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), declared that there is
    no "gun exception" to the Fourth Amendment.

    GeorgiaCarry.Org asks that your officers stop harassing law abiding Georgians with unlawful
    detention. Absent reasonable suspicion of a crime, the person stopped is under no obligation to
    cooperate with an unlawful detention. Since so many of your officers are being trained to detain
    all persons in possession of a firearm, even in the absence of any suspicion of illegality, then the
    results of this Glynn County policy could be disastrous. "
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  15. #44
    Member Array Jaystekan's Avatar
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    Georgia Code - Crimes and Offenses - Title 16, Section 16-11-36 - Georgia Attorney Resources - Georgia Laws

    (a) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.
    (b) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstances make it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this Code section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this Code section if the law enforcement officer failed to comply with the foregoing procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.


    This particular incident of a man in the mall parking lot with a gun on his hip easily falls into this!!!

    Under section a) this man easily caused alarm to any passer-by in the parking lot, you may not agree he does, but to the average citizen, for which this law was written, I would bet they were concerned.
    Section b states that he could be considered loitering simply by refusing to identify himself. Section b also states that this could easily have been fixed by allowing the person to identify himself, which the officer did, but he refused to do.
    Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

  16. #45
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    "well I do as the person is my brother, and he is correct he was complying with their request to put it away. also there is no sign at any entrance, esp the one where he entered. and even if there was a sign it would have still been legal to enter the mall armed."

    So let me get this right, you've been persecuted in some manner over carrying firearms twice, your brother is the one who you believe is being persecuted in this recounting/story now?

    Let me ask you a question here:

    Have you or your brother become the objects of attention with the local LEO's for some reason? In other words, are either or both of you "knowns" to the local LEO's who've been arrested in the past for any type of civil or criminal offense in the past?

    If so, what charges have been filed against either of you in the past by local LE?

    One other point I'm interested in and question-------

    Either of you been to that mall before? Either of you have prior knowledge of the property owners/mall owners/security personnels, etc wishes that no firearms be brought into the mall? Either of you been asked to not bring a firearm into the mall in the past? Any interaction with security at the mall in the past before this incident happened?

    Or is this the first time your brother has been at this particular mall?

    Brownie
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    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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