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Open Carry, Police, and ID

20K views 182 replies 58 participants last post by  JD 
#1 ·
I've been reading another thread where members are discussing the legality of not showing ID to a police officer when requested. I've also read of the practice in PA of "sterile carry".

This is the practice of carrying a firearm openly (legal without a license in PA) while on foot without any state issued ID on their person.

I'm curious what LE would do when the person they just asked for ID from says, "I'm XXXXX XXXXX, and I don't have any ID on me."
 
#2 ·
I don't think I'm going to run the risk of finding out what they would do. IMHO i would rather cooperate with the police. I understand and agree with the viewpoint "you shouldn't say anything without a lawyer present" but you not being questioned on murder (yet)

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. From what i understand (and i could be wrong) you don't have to produce for ID just because your asked. However not producing it could be looked at as being evasive and then they REALLY might wanna talk to you.

Because i can't apply for my CCW yet (only 19) i plan to OC till i can, roughly 463days till i can apply (Apr. 12 2010) and i plan to keep my ID with me at all times.
 
#30 ·
From what i understand (and i could be wrong) you don't have to produce for ID just because your asked. However not producing it could be looked at as being evasive and then they REALLY might wanna talk to you..
So?

Well first off, you should always carry some form of identification. With that said, why would anyone who is a law abiding citizen refuse to show LE an ID?

Maybe because you are not required to by law and you don't want to?

I sure wish people would drop the "papers please" reference which implies that an ID request is the same as Nazis asking for your travel documents. LEOs are not out there to hassle people and find reasons to arrest you.......
What paradise do you live in?

A list of 24 states requiring a person to provide identity to a LEO (some require verbal identification only, some include showing an ID document) can be seen at Stop and Identify statutes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It just absolutely blows my socks off that California is NOT on that list!!
 
#3 ·
Well first off, you should always carry some form of identification. With that said, why would anyone who is a law abiding citizen refuse to show LE an ID? IMO, you're only asking for trouble in this case.

In Utah, you can open carry legally without a permit as long as the weapon is completely unloaded .. or .. atleast 2 actions away from firing. Utah LE is acustomed to the citizen's carrying concealed with a permit and normally dont hassle you if you are legal.

IMO, if you are carrying a gun, you should carry identification and present it if asked. I think you are asking for trouble if you dont. Carrying a gun without proper ID is a recipe to change your address to the "crossbar hotel".
 
#10 ·
Well first off, you should always carry some form of identification. With that said, why would anyone who is a law abiding citizen refuse to show LE an ID? IMO, you're only asking for trouble in this case.
why would someone who is a law abiding citizen be required to show a LEO any ID, if they've done nothing wrong? in PA, cops can't randomly demand your ID. they can ask, but you can refuse; i know, i've done so. unless they have reasonable suspicion, you're under no obligation to even stop and talk to them. as for asking for trouble, i think a LEO who demands you produce 'ze papers' without probable cause is asking for trouble.
 
#4 ·
Florida does not have any open carry. But regarding showing no ID to an officer: It depends. In some cases, the officer may charge you with "resisting an officer without violence". In jargon, this charge is sometimes referred to as "PoP" (p* off police), and usually dropped on first appearance, but it gets you a night in the jail.
 
#6 ·
Although I subscribe to the idea of always being coopertive, always having my ID with me etc... I question if this means I support the idea of "Papers Please". About a year ago, a friend of mine here in Portland, Maine was harrassed (he does not carry, or even own a gun). He was witness to a mugging, and gave a statement to the police, but when they asked him for his ID, and he didn't have it, they started treating him like a suspect. Luckily the store clerk confirme he was not the suspect as he was buying a few groceries when they both saw it happen. There was no legal reason requiring him to carry his ID, yet they treated him harshly simply because he didn't have it on him.

So, how far is too far to require someone to produce "papers". Again, I always have mine on me, and have no reason to not produce it, but others may choose to leave it behind for convenience sake.
 
#9 ·
If asked for ID, I'll give it....BUT....

PAPERS PLEASE!

If I am NOT breaking any laws, why should I have to ID myself to ANYBODY?

Just because I'm carrying a firearm? So what! If I'm not breaking any laws I should be left ALONE! The mere possession of a firearm doesn't equal 'cause'. If the LEO doesn't have good cause...HE SHOULDN'T ASK.

My problem is it is just another excuse to further limit freedoms & the sheep just go along with it.
 
#42 ·
I agree with you 100%... In 1776, those if everyone who didn't have a permit or identification to carry a weapon left their firearms at home, where would we be?

The very act of being forced into obtaining a license to allow us to carry out one of our rights is unconstitutional in the first place..

I'm not saying I am going to rip up my permit, because obviously you have to play their game to some extent to get along in life, otherwise you end up tazed in a theater for asking legitimate questions that hit too close to home of corrupt politicians.. Just saying, I wish those in law enforcement would step away from their orders and brown shirt protocols that they are given and start thinking a little more constitutionally...
 
#11 ·
First IANAL, I don't even play one on TV and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

I would imagine that each state has different laws regarding this.

In Illinois, you must provide identification to LEO when asked. if you are driving, you must have your DL in your possession.

If you look at this from the LEO view, they have no idea who you are. You know that you are a law abiding honest citizen, that would never lie about who you are. However, LE deals with people every day that are trying to get by with something. They are lied to all the time. There are many people walking around with warrants out for thier arrest. These people will commonly not have any ID on them and will lie about thier names. Commonly, they will provide a brother or sisters name, if they are close in appearance.

In this area, you should plan on being detained until your identity can be verified.
 
#17 ·
#12 ·
I sure wish people would drop the "papers please" reference which implies that an ID request is the same as Nazis asking for your travel documents. LEOs are not out there to hassle people and find reasons to arrest you, they are out there trying to catch bad guys that are amongst us. They are trying to protect your sorry butt. It's common sense to carry ID and refusing to present it is wasting everyone's time and preventing them from dismissing you and going about on their way....
 
#13 ·
Several states have enacted laws that require an I.D. to be submitted when asked by police. If you refuse or fail to have one when questioned, you are guilty of an infraction.

Before you refuse to show I.D. to an officer, make sure you know where the law stands on this. Otherwise, you might find yourself in the back of police car thinking that you are being falsely arrested when in fact you are not.

Since this thread is about open carry and not showing an I.D. when asked by the Po, I would think that it may be complicating matters not having an I.D.
 
#14 ·
This was a GA issue. Other states may have similar exceptions or omissions in their laws. But my personal opinion is why have a permit/license if you are not going to show it to law enforcement personel? You can take on the law, but it could cost you in more ways than you want to pay. To each their own - but if requested to produce or show - mine is coming out of the wallet.
 
#15 ·
Carry some I.D. on your person - If you get hit by a truck...do you want to die a John Doe?

Your tombstone will read:

Here Lies John Doe.
He Might Be You But,
We Don't Know???
:hand5:
 
#16 ·
IF I were carrying openly and IF a LEO ask for ID or even if he went as far as asking for a permit to carry the gun, I would most likely provide ID.

Here in VA you are not required to have a permit to open carry and you are not required to carry ID at all unless you have a concealed gun.

I'm all for freedom and avoiding a police state but I really think that too many of us over think this problem.

It's too trivial an issue for me to get out my sword and shield of justice and refuse to provide ID.

I just pick my battles, that's all . . . and this one is not one I choose to fight.

If the cop is being a total jerk, I will probably file a complaint at the proper time, but I am not going to escalate the hostility on the scene.

Just doesn't make sense to me.
 
#18 ·
Yeah, I know some people who walk around with a chip on their shoulder begging for a confrontation too. I try to stay away from all such numb skulls! :blackeye:

Be glad the LEO's ask for ID, it's the only way they can be sure you are who you say you are and I for one have nothing to hide! :yup:
 
#20 ·
Yeah, I know some people who walk around with a chip on their shoulder begging for a confrontation too. I try to stay away from all such numb skulls! :blackeye:
:yup:
:congrats:

So you get stopped by a LEO that does not know the OC laws and instead of education you go confrontational? (Not you Thumper).

The end result will be a ticked off cop, the Confrontational OC probably in handcuffs and the OC community getting a black eye for no reason other than ego. Now, if the OC in question complies politely and once the ID is run talks to the officer and explains politely about the issue, you educate one more LEO in your side and the OC community advances. And if you go ahead and send a letter to the Chief explaining what happened and how well the officer responded to the situation, maybe the Chief will look into the issue and send down a directive to the rest of the force about OC.

Maybe I am weird, but I respond better to a polite person than one idiotic individual with an attitude.
 
#21 ·
a hypothetical for those of you who say....."If I'm obeying the law, what do I have to fear by providing ID?"....

Let's go with this situation in the OP......I'm open carrying (LEGALLY), a Leo asks for my ID.....I show it to him. The LEO is still not satisfied & wants to take my firearm...'to check & see if it's stolen'.....Do you comply further?....Letting him run the serial number & whatever else he wishes to do?

We continue to give up small amounts of liberty every time something like this occurs.......Pretty soon we are a police state & will have to provide 'PAPERS PLEASE' whenever we do anything that that is deemed 'suspicious' by the government.

I hear you skeptics out there....'This is the USA, that can't happen here...'

There are a lot of other people in countries today, that thought the same thing. Just ask the people of the UK, who can't even carry a knife & have no 'right' to self-defense. There are now subject to random searches for knives & other contraband while going about their daily lives.
 
#23 ·
a hypothetical for those of you who say....."If I'm obeying the law, what do I have to fear by providing ID?"....

Let's go with this situation in the OP......I'm open carrying (LEGALLY), a Leo asks for my ID.....I show it to him. The LEO is still not satisfied & wants to take my firearm...'to check & see if it's stolen'.....Do you comply further?....Letting him run the serial number & whatever else he wishes to do?
If it were me, at this point i would really start asking questions. if there is no reason, or the reason is BS, i would refuse.

but on the reverse, purely hypothetical, your walking down the sidewalk and a cop stops and asks for ID, you dont know it, but there was a robbery/mugging/ insert your crime of choice here, and you match the description, purely coincidental but now you are refusing to show the cop ID. Makes you look very suspicious. Thats why i think its better to cooperate to a point.

Assuming im legally carrying, and haven't committed a crime, there is no reason for a LEO to take my weapon. There would have to be a reason for them to suspect if your weapon is stolen. (+1 for having a real holster and not taking IWB literally) if an officer presents me with the situation of an armed robbery of which i match the description, i would let them run the numbers.

But it all really depends on the situation. Given the situation and details given, a LEO asks for my ID, then decided he wants my gun. Never, not without a real reason.
 
#24 ·
I for one am also getting a bit tired of the Papers Please crowd. 99% of the people in this forum do not have an inkling about what is to live in a country where that is the norm and I bet that covers 100% of the Papers Please crowd.
When you are looking down the barrel of a FN FAL while the uniformed moron holding the rifle asks you for papers, then come talk about it. In the meantime I resent profoundly bagging all LEOs in the USA as some sort of Gestapos because some may happen to be uneducated in the OC ways. It is unfair and unnecessarily incendiary which does not help any gun cause at all.
 
#25 ·
I admit that I am the first one that brought up the "papers please" statement, and my intent of statement was not in reflection to an oppressive Nazi government, but more in the line of plain old "big Brother" mentality.

If we look at the technical aspects of the WWII Germany, and the "Papers" and then compare that with today's drives license, computers that can check and cross check drivers license, vehicle registration, CCW, Social Security Numbers, (and the list goes on, and on) we have far surpased the "Papers Please" of WWII Germany. The PURPOSE for todays system is not built on the premis that WWII germany issued "Papers". I am not saying it can't be abused, because it can, but the fact remains that if we want to use the concept of use "Papers Please" as reasons we should not do something, we are far past the technical capability of WWII germany's papers.

My apologies for using the phrase to begin with as it does relate a concept that I don't belong to. We just need to be on top of things to prevent the abuse of the system already in place.
 
#26 ·
Just a clarification - many states have enacted laws requiring someome to identify themselves upon LEO request. But that is not the same as requiring the person to prodcue an ID. They must simply verbally identify themselves.
In fact, there is no state that requires ANYONE to have an ID on them just to walk down the street. This is why in some states, as part of the OC movement, some practice sterile carry - so it is not a matter of "refusing" to provide ID, it is simply "I don't have any," thereby avoiding the claim of hostility or uncooperativeness.

As for the "papers please" reference, not only does it allude to NAzi germany (which required ID cards, not just travel docs) but is also alludes to almost any totalitarian country of the past century.
 
#27 ·
I have hesitated to join this thread due to the heartburn caused to several but here I am. First let me say I have been asked for my ID and presented it. Second, I have been asked for my weapon and presented it (okay let him take it). In the OPs scenario it's obvious this sterile carry is to make a statement and it involves the legal carry of a firearm. Doesn't help the firearms cause anytime a gun makes the news. To the point of ID. It seems several are confusing Identifying yourself to a LE vs producing "ze papers". I just re-familiarized myself with the Fl Statute and no where does it say I must produce ID as a tangible item. It goes further to say
No person shall be convicted of an offense under this section if the law enforcement officer did not comply with this procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person is true and, if believed by the officer at the time, would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.
So, IF the LEO has cause to ask me I must answer. If I am CC then I must produce my permit or get a 25.00 admin fine.

I guess the part that is bothersome is that several folks seem annoyed at another posters decision to follow the letter of the law and ensure the LEO follows the letter of the law. While in many other instances the advice or response is not so contrary. I understand that the climate in the world is such that BGs are everywhere but which rights do HAVE to give up. Again remember if the LE has cause then it's justified. And no where did I see anyone (OP or the fella from GA) state they would ID themselves they just said they would not produce a tangible ID.

EDIT: I Take that back the OP did say in a quote who he is and he does not have an ID. I submit he did have ID, just not a tangible one.

LE: to re-state the question part of the OP but without the controversy of the gun. A individual is minding their on business and not breaking any laws but an officer has cause to ask for his/her indentification and the person rattles off their name, address, SSN heck even the DL number (I know mine) but does not have one on him/her or have one available. What then?
 
#28 ·
If a LEO asks me for ID, I am going to show him ID. I am a law abiding citizen and I have no reason to fear the Police. They already have a hard enough job, why the heck would I make it any harder by being a jackass. My rights are not violated simply by letting a Police Officer look at my carry permit and DL.
 
#29 ·
Rather than not carry ID, being uncooperative or other instigating behavior , why not legally challenge these issues in court, politics and such. giving gun owners a bad name by acting less than reasonable or cooperative isn't going to make non gun owners want to support gun ownership.
 
#31 · (Edited by Moderator)
There is no requirement for you to carry ID on you unless you are operating a motor vehicle, then you would need your drivers license.

If you are caught carrying, open or concealed, with no ID, you will be detained at least until they figure out who you are! After that you may get a good ass chewing.
The mere carrying of a firearm, be it open or concealed is not grounds to be stopped by a police officer, at least not in PA. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there is case law that stays it is not reason to approach.
 
#33 ·
The mere carrying of a firearm, be it open or concealed is not grounds to be stopped by a police officer, at least not in PA. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there is case law that stays it is not reason to approach.
Perhaps that is because the police don't need any grounds to approach. They need reasonable suspicion to detain and probable cause to arrest, but nothing to walk up and start talking.
 
#52 · (Edited by Moderator)
True, and the person can just ignore them and keep walking.

If the LEO is asking you to produce ID, there is a reason for it and that reason may not be known to you initially.
So what if the person believes this to be a mere encounter and decides to walk away from the officer?? The person gets cuffed & stuffed and then told why the need for the ID?

Again, there is no requirement for the person to be carrying some form of ID.

If the contact goes beyond a mere encounter, such as an investigatory stop......the person may have to ID himself to the satisfaction of the officer. But unlike the mere encounter where the person can choose to interact (or not) with the officer, during an investigatory stop the person is not free to walk away.
 
#34 ·
Unless you're operating a motor vehicle, you are not required to show a driver's license to anyone or produce any other documentation for identification purposes, as a matter of federal due process under the Fourteenth Amendment (unless the U.S. Sup. Ct. has changed its mind since the last time I looked this up).

Under state law, you may be required to produce a concealed carry permit if you're carrying concealed, or other documentation related to some special activity. For example, to bypass the metal detectors at some courthouses, I've got special identification cards issued by the local sheriffs' offices. You may have to have a card for participation in public school activities. But you do not have to produce those things unless you're engaged in that activity at the time.

Again, under state law, you may be required to give your full name and address orally, if requested, and you can usually be detained without suspicion unless and until you provide that information, and lying about any aspect of it is generally a crime.
 
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