Our OC is scary, but LEO's OC isn't scary?

This is a discussion on Our OC is scary, but LEO's OC isn't scary? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a "what's up with that?" thing. In Virginia, concealed carry is prohibited in a restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages (we don't have "bars" ...

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Thread: Our OC is scary, but LEO's OC isn't scary?

  1. #1
    Member Array user's Avatar
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    Our OC is scary, but LEO's OC isn't scary?

    This is a "what's up with that?" thing.

    In Virginia, concealed carry is prohibited in a restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages (we don't have "bars" or "taverns" in Virginia, and every restaurant has to get at least 51% of its receipts from sales of food). There is, of course, an exception in the statute for law enforcement officers who are drinking while on duty.

    A place that serves alcoholic beverages thus limits my ability to haul guns around, because of the Virginia statute. I could lawfully do open carry, but I feel bad about OC scaring people. Especially when it's the sort of place where cops like to hang out in that restaurant. I don't want anyone to feel like they can't just eat and enjoy their lunches without having to worry about what I mean to do with the gun.

    What's funny is, cops and sheriff's deputies carry all the time, openly and concealed, and no one thinks anything of it. My perception is that most cops only shoot when they have to go in for qualification and regard their guns merely as part of their job. Sort of like expecting a carpenter to love his hammer and want to carry it with him all the time and to practice with it in his off-hours.

    So, knowing what I do about the attitudes most LEO's have about guns (some like 'em, some hate 'em, and most don't really care) and the amount and quality of training and practice they get, I wonder that people aren't more concerned about that.

    It appears to me that people who aren't cops and who are the types to OC in restaurants where alcohol is served, tend to be gun-freaks and very responsible about compliance with law and public safety. They're not only very good with their guns, but likely to be the best defense anyone in the area's got when trouble comes.

    Oh, well, another instance of "too many movies" I guess.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    The difference is when someone sees a LEO they assume this person is a good guy with proper training. When they see Joe the Plumber they have no idea what to think!! If you don't like your states laws work to change them. At least y'all can carry in a place that serves, in NC we can't even enter the door, so it could be much worse!!

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  4. #3
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    It's strange that you mention that you don't carry in restaurants that serve alcohol for consumption on the premises becuase your concerned about others perceptions of you.

    May I ask what other behaviors you have surrendered due to others perceptions. Do you have any visible tattoos, piercings, might you be wearing unpolished boots with faded jeans that are frayed about the bottom of the leg?

    Not trying to flame you. but just trying to get you to see how illogical that type of behavior is. I would not give up my abiliy to defend myself and my family just becuase i am more concerned about some other families feelings.

    Respectfully
    MikeV

  5. #4
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    I could lawfully do open carry, but I feel bad about OC scaring people.
    That's what I do all the time here in the Richmond area. I've OC'd in restaurants since I moved here in 98. So far no one has said a word to me about it. The sheep don't notice it, or if they do they don't let on that they do.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    What's funny is, cops and sheriff's deputies carry all the time, openly and concealed, Some do, some dont. and no one thinks anything of it. My perception is that most cops only shoot when they have to go in for qualification and regard their guns merely as part of their job. Sort of like expecting a carpenter to love his hammer and want to carry it with him all the time and to practice with it in his off-hours. Again, some do and some don't. The LEO who doesnt give a hoot about his guns isnt going to be carrying off duty all that much anyway. No matter, your perception of LEO is training is mostly wrong. Some agencies shoot very little, but most important types of firearms training that all LEO's have abundances of have nothing to do with the gun or the range itself, and thats the area that the CCW crowd is sadly lacking. Going to the range and wasteing several hundred rounds every month doesnt mean much at all.

    So, knowing what I do about the attitudes most LEO's have about guns (some like 'em, some hate 'em, and most don't really care) and the amount and quality of training and practice they get, I wonder that people aren't more concerned about that.
    Because they are used to seeing the LEO and his pistol. Its just a comfort level thing.
    It appears to me that people who aren't cops and who are the types to OC in restaurants where alcohol is served, tend to be gun-freaks and very responsible about compliance with law and public safety. They're not only very good with their guns, but likely to be the best defense anyone in the area's got when trouble comes. Maybe, maybe not. Its a crap shoot on that one. I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers, but I more often deal with a over zealous John Wayne type of CCW holder doing something goofy than I do an off duty cop.

    Oh, well, another instance of "too many movies" I guess.
    Yeah, I guess so.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Oh I've seen the over zealous CCW holders that are more accepting to a confrontation than willing to avoid it. Just so MAYBE they might get a feeling of shooting in the real. Crazy...total crazy to me.

    Or the "I armed, so I don't really have to be polite to you" attitudes. I get that alot @ my local ranges, from staff to patrons. This upmost serious commando style "I'm the fire arm God" minset...I just roll my eyes, and say a small prayer for them.

    What happened to excercising politeness, instead of "I don't have to talk to you if I don't want to, you are not worthy" attitudes.

    I find myself alot more personal and polite. Willing to go that "extra mile" to be nice, easy going, or more formal, now that I am armed, and have a huge dedication and responsibility in my possesion.

    recent experience @ my range.....which I'm debating to wether to go back or not.....it's not an inviteing place...thanks to the staff...bunch of hard noses


    little rant there.....guess I had to release.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Open Carry no one will really care or notice. only person who has ever had a problem with me open carrying was police :( But I dont let that bother me and open carry twice as much :)
    S&W M&P40/M&P9c OC rigs
    S&W 640-1 or Sig P238 as a CC rig
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  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    I don't think your right to carry should be infringed from just "being" in an establishment that serves alcohol - but be the same as driving - you know, don't drink and drive - don't carry and drink.
    I don't drink so I don't think I should be restricted in my carry just because of where I am - but if you are drinking or not be the reason.....
    Last edited by ArmyCop; January 27th, 2009 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Typed drive when meant drink
    For God, Family and Country!

  10. #9
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyCop View Post
    I don't think your right to carry should be infringed from just "being" in an establishment that serves alcohol - but be the same as driving - you know, don't drink and drive - don't carry and drive.
    I don't drink so I don't think I should be restricted in my carry just because of where I am - but if you are drinking or not be the reason.....
    Yes!!! please don't carry and drive, secure the firearm in a holster and keep two hands on the wheel! ;) I think you meant don't carry and drink. But that is good advice as well.

    MikeV
    MP in a former life. (Just so you know I'm funning with ya and not serious Brother)

  11. #10
    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    "Our OC is scary, but LEO's OC isn't scary?"

    Actually, there are folks who believe LEO's OC carry to be scary, as well.
    God, country, family.

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEV View Post
    Yes!!! please don't carry and drive, secure the firearm in a holster and keep two hands on the wheel! ;) I think you meant don't carry and drink. But that is good advice as well.

    MikeV
    MP in a former life. (Just so you know I'm funning with ya and not serious Brother)

    Thanks, I just edited that.
    For God, Family and Country!

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    This is a "what's up with that?" thing.

    In Virginia, concealed carry is prohibited in a restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages (we don't have "bars" or "taverns" in Virginia, and every restaurant has to get at least 51% of its receipts from sales of food). There is, of course, an exception in the statute for law enforcement officers who are drinking while on duty.
    You won't find any law enforcement agencies in Virginia in this day and age that allow any sort of on-duty drinking except in very limited undercover and training environments. At any rate, Virginia law prohibits carrying while intoxicated, not "while drinking". Here is the excerpt from 18.2-308:

    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    A place that serves alcoholic beverages thus limits my ability to haul guns around, because of the Virginia statute. I could lawfully do open carry, but I feel bad about OC scaring people. Especially when it's the sort of place where cops like to hang out in that restaurant. I don't want anyone to feel like they can't just eat and enjoy their lunches without having to worry about what I mean to do with the gun.
    Its legal. The more common it is, the less people will be disturbed by it. Don't do it if it makes you feel uncomfortable, but not doing it because it makes other people uncomfortable is a cop-out.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    What's funny is, cops and sheriff's deputies carry all the time, openly and concealed, and no one thinks anything of it. My perception is that most cops only shoot when they have to go in for qualification and regard their guns merely as part of their job. Sort of like expecting a carpenter to love his hammer and want to carry it with him all the time and to practice with it in his off-hours.
    And your perception is based on what? Statements by internet commandos? The fact is that cops take people at gunpoint and deal with high stress situations on a regular basis. Its not a big event in my life to point a gun at someone. It is for the average CCW holder if one goes by the posts and responses about it on forums like this. I will agree that there are a lot of non-LEOs out there who are excellent shooters. Being an excellent shooter and being excellent at handling a high stress deadly force encounter are not the same thing. I'd put my money on an experienced street cop over the average CCW holder even allowing that the CCW holder is a better shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    So, knowing what I do about the attitudes most LEO's have about guns (some like 'em, some hate 'em, and most don't really care) and the amount and quality of training and practice they get, I wonder that people aren't more concerned about that.
    I'm still not clear on where these "facts" are coming from. However, the reason it doesn't concern people more is that a) most people just assume that cops know what they are doing and b) most people are not as concerned about weapons, training, mindset, etc., at the people who post here. Hence the reason that open carry happens all the time without people taking much notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    It appears to me that people who aren't cops and who are the types to OC in restaurants where alcohol is served, tend to be gun-freaks and very responsible about compliance with law and public safety. They're not only very good with their guns, but likely to be the best defense anyone in the area's got when trouble comes.
    Because why, they can shoot? Or so we assume anyway. How many super-tacticool folks do you see at ranges and gunshops who think they are experts and couldn't shoot their way out of a pay toilet? Again, I'll put my money on someone with experience over someone good a punching paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Oh, well, another instance of "too many movies" I guess.
    For someone anyway.

    All that said, I'm all for legal carry anywhere possible, which includes open carry in places where its legal and concealed isn't. I'm just really tired or reading on the internet how my colleagues and I cannot shoot and have poor training. Especially when it is coming from folks who have never had any real encounter in their lives (I'm not saying that is the case with the OP, I have no idea what his experience might be).
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Well put Landric. I don't think that the OP meant to be disrespectful to police, though it may have come off that way.

    I would be willing to make a large wager that the average person on this forum greatly respects and admires the LEO community. That's a crappy job you guys have! I appreciate you for doing it and carry because I know that with all of the territory you have to cover you couldn't be there at the moment of need for me if you wanted to.

    I also agree with the OP about carrying in restaurants. Here in AZ it is illegal to OC or CC in restaurants...they are no-gun zones, which IMAO makes them BG-friendly zones. If I were king :) I would have the rule no alcohol while armed and carry all you want. But then again I am not king.

    However, I can bug my elected officials to make some common sense changes and work from within the system! That is one of the things I like best about this forum--the insistence that we work with LEO and within our system for change rather than become angry and try to flaunt disrespect and disobedience.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinistrMalic View Post
    Well put Landric. I don't think that the OP meant to be disrespectful to police, though it may have come off that way.

    I would be willing to make a large wager that the average person on this forum greatly respects and admires the LEO community. That's a crappy job you guys have! I appreciate you for doing it and carry because I know that with all of the territory you have to cover you couldn't be there at the moment of need for me if you wanted to.

    I also agree with the OP about carrying in restaurants. Here in AZ it is illegal to OC or CC in restaurants...they are no-gun zones, which IMAO makes them BG-friendly zones. If I were king :) I would have the rule no alcohol while armed and carry all you want. But then again I am not king.

    However, I can bug my elected officials to make some common sense changes and work from within the system! That is one of the things I like best about this forum--the insistence that we work with LEO and within our system for change rather than become angry and try to flaunt disrespect and disobedience.
    I don't think the OP meant any disrespect either actually. Most of my post was not directed at him, but the attitude in general. The point I was trying to make was that no subset of people, police, CCW holders, etc., can really be classified so broadly. We are all guilty of it to one extent or another.

    Just as some people have no business being cops (but are anyway), some people have no business carrying weapons (but do anyway, legally). Assuming that the average CCW holder is better equipped to handle a deadly force encounter than the average LEO is somewhat unrealistic, even if there are specific CCW holders who are. Most people just don't have that much experience (thankfully) with handling high stress encounters with the real potential for the use of deadly force. Most street cops (unfortunately) do. Obviously there are exceptions both ways.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  16. #15
    Member Array user's Avatar
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    Very good observations. Particularly Landric's regarding dealing with stressful encounters. No amount of killing paper at the range will prepare a person for that.

    Thanks.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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