Virginia Restaurant Ban More Confusing Than Ever

This is a discussion on Virginia Restaurant Ban More Confusing Than Ever within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by The Fish Willie has the ability to create a "zone of coolness"near his concerts. Could it be because his tour bus burns ...

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Thread: Virginia Restaurant Ban More Confusing Than Ever

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fish View Post
    Willie has the ability to create a "zone of coolness"near his concerts.
    Could it be because his tour bus burns hemp oil?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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  3. #32
    Member Array langenc's Avatar
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    Another LEO with a problem(quoted).

    The Virginia Beach PD has itself in hot water, again re arresting someone for OC. He just beat them for 10K a few months ago. Now the same LEOs arrest him again. Many are hoping this time for an addn zero or more.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    It was Norfolk PD actually. My understanding is that the gentleman who was open carrying (legally) was issued a summons, not arrested. He was also charged with trespassing, not open carry.

    Norfolk PD has upwards of 700 officers, I doubt it was the same officers that dealt with the subject in both cases. None of that makes them right of course, but its nice to have the relavent facts when passing along information.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  5. #34
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    Landric.
    I doubt it was the same officers that dealt with the subject in both cases.

    Subject.

    Are We living in England ?.

  6. #35
    Member Array langenc's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=jofrdo;1025734]I was talking to a law enforcement officer who was working off duty at my synagogue's fundraising auction last Saturday (see my post "Got Made at Temple Auction" in this forum). I told him that I always open carry in restaurants that serve alcohol since Virginia law prohibits concealed carry there, even with a Concealed Handgun Permit. He said that that is only enforced in bars and that a lot of officers, him included, would see open carry in a family restaurant as creating a public disturbance.

    Discretionary power and they love it. One fellow has sued a Va town for violating his rights re-OC and WON. A few weeks later the SAME cops arrested the SAME carrier again. Many are hoping his $10000 payment the first time has a couple more 0's in the 2nd award.

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    langenc said:

    Discretionary power and they love it. One fellow has sued a Va town for violating his rights re-OC and WON. A few weeks later the SAME cops arrested the SAME carrier again. Many are hoping his $10000 payment the first time has a couple more 0's in the 2nd award.
    Landric said:

    It was Norfolk PD actually. My understanding is that the gentleman who was open carrying (legally) was issued a summons, not arrested. He was also charged with trespassing, not open carry.

    Norfolk PD has upwards of 700 officers, I doubt it was the same officers that dealt with the subject in both cases. None of that makes them right of course, but its nice to have the relavent facts when passing along information.
    I guess I was talking to myself. Again, it helps to have the relevant facts before posting information.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landric View Post
    It was Norfolk PD actually. My understanding is that the gentleman who was open carrying (legally) was issued a summons, not arrested. He was also charged with trespassing, not open carry.

    Norfolk PD has upwards of 700 officers, I doubt it was the same officers that dealt with the subject in both cases. None of that makes them right of course, but its nice to have the relavent facts when passing along information.
    Not likely, .

    Also, as far as I know not true in the third incident.

    However, FWIIW, here's what Dan posted on the OCDO web site about the second of the three incidents:


    I hope your sitting down with some popcorn and duct tape....

    So...

    I dropped off my car at the dealership in Chesapeake and decided to
    take the bus back to Hampton. I get on the first bus. No problems. :)

    I get on the second bus and I'm questioned by the bus driver with "do
    you have a permit for that?". I replied, "I do have a permit to
    conceal, but there's no permit to carry in the open like this". I
    guess she did not believe me, because she asked me again. I gave her
    the same answer as if she didn't hear me the first time. I then slid
    my transfer slip and sat down. She then started to take off, but then
    stopped the bus to make a phone call. She then asked me "do you have
    a security badge?". I got upset and replied "does it look like I got
    a badge on?" (I've realized that might not have been the best answer,
    but at that point I was pissed at her).

    So then we sit there and wait while she's on the phone. A rider asked
    her what's the hold up. She told him that we are waiting for the
    police. So 2 mins later, Norfolk's finest show up. I'm thinking,
    super, everything will be explained that it's legal and what not.

    NOT!!!

    So the 1st LEO steps on the bus and asks me to stand up, which I do.
    He walks over to me with his hand reaching for my firearm, which I
    leaned over to comply without a word. He then asks me to step off the
    bus. After we get off the bus, he tells me they got a call about a
    man with a gun (go figure), and I turn to my right and see MORE LEOs
    arriving.

    The 1st LEO asks me, "do you have a permit to conceal?", I tell him,
    "yes". Then he goes about telling me that I should just conceal and
    how I've caused an "inconvenience" and such. I tell him that it's a
    beautiful day and I wanted to open carry. So he tells me again that
    it's not a good idea and what not.

    So I guess he got tired of me and a Sargent started to talk to me, and
    I got frustrated because he was asking me the same damn questions. So
    at this point I asked if I was being detained, and they told me that I
    was being detained. I asked, "what crime am I being suspected of
    committing"? and he replied, "disorderly conduct" ... They elaborated
    stating that I was causing a public inconvenience. So I told him to
    arrest me if that's the case. The LEO stated he didn't want to. I
    said to just write me a summons so I can see him in court. He didn't
    want to do that either. *sigh*

    So I asked for a LT to be called. About less than a minute later, I
    guess one pulled up (I didn't think he was) and he started telling me
    that Norfolk has a code that one must show ID when asked by a LEO (or
    something similar). I told him to tell me the code so I can make a
    phone call and confirm it. He refused to tell it. I told him to
    contact the city attorney. He walks away leaving me with the "watch
    him" LEO.

    Quick FYI - there about 5 responding LEOs, 1 whom was the LEO that had
    me at gunpoint from the police vid during the 1st downtown Norfolk
    incident. So I figured that he would clear things up. NOT!!!

    So then they proceed to tell me that if I don't show ID, they will
    confiscate my firearm. I tell them "good, I'll just get it back along
    with the lawsuit" (I had my XD on, but if they took it, I would have
    put on my 1911 I had in my bag :P). They were explaining that I could
    be a felon or underage. Then he walks away and goes to the LEO huddle
    for 2 seconds, comes back, tells me that he giving me back my firearm
    and that I should conceal when the next bus comes and walks away.

    So...

    I got back to Hampton with NO problems whatsoever, get in my car,
    drive BACK to Norfolk to get some FOIA goodies (I forgot to ask for
    the police dashcams which I knew were running).
    Not likely, doesn't mean it can't happen.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    I'm surprised that any of the same officers were involved in the incidents, but the second of the three didn't result in any legal action, so I wasn't considering that one. I do remember reading about it.

    I'm not trying to defend NPD here, but I think Mr. Moore is going to have a hard time winning any money from Norfolk based on his summons for trespass.

    First off, in order to successfully sue the government one has to prove gross negligence at a minimum, otherwise the case is going to be gone on summary judgment before it ever gets near a trial. Second, the City's argument was that the property in question was private property, not city property. I know that a General District Court judge ruled that it was in fact government/public property, but the city was sure enough of its position to take the case to trial. General District Court rulings generally don't amount to case law, so its quite possible a different judge could rule the property private in the future under the same set of facts. Third, given the City's position that the property in question was private (and the case the City's lawyers made for it), it is unreasonable to expect a lesser trained (in the law) police officer to make the decision that it is in fact government property, especially if he or she has been trained by the City that it is private property. That makes proving gross negligence on the part of the officer a serious stretch. Forth, if we accept that the officer thought the property in question was private (rightly or wrongly), then it is likely he had probable cause for a trespass charge.

    I think its possible that the City will give Mr. Moore more settlement money to make him go away, but I think he will have a real uphill battle if he decides to go to trial rather than accept a settlement, or in the event that the City doesn't offer one.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  10. #39
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    Sensible argument. Then again if he can just rack up the arrests, then present them as a train of abuses, it might be a whole new ballgame.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  11. #40
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    So far, Norfolk and NPD are 0 for 2 on trying to arrest Dan. Dan is 2 and 0 against Norfolk and the NPD in court....retribution anyone?
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  12. #41
    Member Array Snake Eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    I was talking to a law enforcement officer who was working off duty at my synagogue's fundraising auction last Saturday (see my post "Got Made at Temple Auction" in this forum). I told him that I always open carry in restaurants that serve alcohol since Virginia law prohibits concealed carry there, even with a Concealed Handgun Permit. He said that that is only enforced in bars and that a lot of officers, him included, would see open carry in a family restaurant as creating a public disturbance.

    Man, we can't win. If we comply with the law as written and carry openly, we could be in trouble for disturbing the peace. If we ignore the law and conceal carry, we might find ourselves in an establishment that he defines as a bar and get cited for that. Virginia law does not define a bar separately from any other type of estalishment that sells alcohol for on premises consumption by the single drink so its anybody's guess as to what he or other officers would say is a bar.

    For me, I will comply with the written law and open carry. Tell that public disturbance junk to the judge, officer.

    Please go to the VCDL site and print the letter from the ABC Chief it has helped me alot. They also have a letter from State Police about OC there as well I keep both in my glove box.
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the rights of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. 2nd Amendment.

    For Those Who FOUGHT For It FREEDOM Has a Flavor the Protected WILL NEVER KNOW.
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  13. #42
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    I received my Virginia non-resident permit this past week and it was quite exciting. Right now, I commute to Alexandria and as we all know, Maryland is essentially a no-issue state. Nothing would make me happier than to see the restaurant ban go. Do we have any idea of how likely this is if VA Republican AG wins in November?

    The restaurant ban has severely limited where I can carry when I am down here. Nearly all of the places I eat serve alcohol and the other places I go (post office for example) are no carry places either. Kind of defeats the purpose of having one.

    Nice to be part of the crowd. Oh, the VA non-resident is the most unofficial looking permit I've ever seen. It looks like someone made it at their desk with a home laminator. I'd be shocked if anyone other than a LEO thought it was real.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I wish the states would get together and adopt a common sense set of ccw laws that are consistent from state to state. This would simplify things and work along the lines of a drivers license.

  15. #44
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    Yes but unfortunately some states are running a deficit of common sense when it comes to gun laws. It always amazes me that we are all Americans, yet our residence dictates the level of freedom we enjoy as it pertains to our rights.

    Now if you all would just elect me as your benevolent dictator, I will solve many of these pressing problems...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  16. #45
    Member Array Flippinstk's Avatar
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    +1

    I'm +1 for Paramedic becomming the "benevolent dictator" and myself as his 2nd in charge..... we just might accomplish a Democracy, free from Tyrany!
    Alex G.
    S&W M&P .45
    Virginia Beach, Va.
    Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
    Certified NRA Pistol Instructor
    NRA Range Officer

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