Explain me this...

[jamierah]

Correct me if I'm wrong but MI doesn't have any law allowing open carry it's a default right that has no law against it. The only law I can find regulating open carry is the one referencing the pistol free zones. That law makes an allowance for CPL holders in general, no reference to "special permits" this law has no requirements that the pistol needs to be concealed or open (may be covered in another law).

Since that law was written we have a new law that prevents a CPL holder from carrying concealed in a pistol free zone, therefor a CPL holder can carry open in said zone. Which is what the AG said in her opinion without the $5 words. Is this what the lawmakers intended, I doubt it, but it's what the law says.

That being said I would not want to carry into a school just to avoid the inevitable police encounter but it would allow open carry in bars or entertainment venues; etc

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Kimberguy]

ol. So in addition, since the CPL does not govern OC, you fall under OC once you transition from CC to OC.

yes, you are correct, when you OC your CPL no longer governs, and yes you do fall into the OC laws...
Once you have a CPL you are exempt from the pistol free zones that would otherwise apply to a person who would OC.

So penal code might allow those with CPL to OC at a school but the CPL statute ONLY AUTHORIZES CC (and does not apply to OC) and does not grant the right to CC at a school.

CORRECT! CC in a school is still a no no

Correct me if I'm wrong but MI doesn't have any law allowing open carry it's a default right that has no law against it. The only law I can find regulating open carry is the one referencing the pistol free zones. That law makes an allowance for CPL holders in general, no reference to "special permits" this law has no requirements that the pistol needs to be concealed or open (may be covered in another law).

it is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in Michigan with out a CPL, there for that list of no carry zones can only apply to OC.

Since that law was written we have a new law that prevents a CPL holder from carrying concealed in a pistol free zone, therefor a CPL holder can carry open in said zone. Which is what the AG said in her opinion without the $5 words. Is this what the lawmakers intended, I doubt it, but it's what the law says.

Correct. I would imagine that would be their intent otherwise why make tw sets of laws discerning between CPL holders and not?

That being said I would not want to carry into a school just to avoid the inevitable police encounter but it would allow open carry in bars or entertainment venues; etc

understandable. what you decide to do with the information is up to you. It is my believe that you should know what you can and can not do. Just because you can does not mean that you will. but you also should never question if what you are doing is legal or not... if you don't know then you shouldn't do it until you do know.

[Thanis]

The CPL states it only applies to CC (not the generic right to carrying). So, once you OC, no longer applies in regards to the penal code.

You know. The wording of 28.425 has come into question a lot. Initially, for example, it does not state, in days, how long a CPL has until a CPL holder's purchased pistol must be registered (think it said something like "reasonable amount of time"). The courts desided that reasonable time would be the same as the non-CPL holder (I think there was a change in 2009). Those lost in the grey of I don't have to were wrong. The intent was clear. BTW, I don't know the number of days required. I always get it done in a day or so.

28.425 clearly applies only to a CC pistol, and does not intend to grant an OC right.

I'm not suggesting you do anything illegal, I'm no authority on the subject. IMO, per my posts, I would say a MI CPL holder can't OC on school property. I also believe there is nothing I can say to change your belief. I give up. So, I'm just saying, if you are a MI CPL holder, and you strap an OC pistol to your side, and walk into a school, well.... No need to post, I'll hear about you on the news.

PS - This could change depending if the pistol-free zones go away per recent suggestions at the state level.

[Kimberguy]

The CPL states it only applies to CC (not the generic right to carrying). So, once you OC, no longer applies in regards to the penal code.

You know. The wording of 28.425 has come into question a lot. Initially, for example, it does not state, in days, how long a CPL has until a CPL holder's purchased pistol must be registered (thint is said something like "reasonable amount of time." The courts desided that reasonable time would be the same as the non-CPL holder (maybe 30 days now, I think there was a change in 2009).

28.425 clearly applies only to a CC pistol, and does not intend to grant an OC right.

But if you are a MI CPL holder, strap a OC pistol to you side, and walk into a school. No need to post, I'll hear about you on the news.

YES 28.425o only applies to CC and ONLY CC... we both know that we both agree. so we know that CC is out of the question.

what is important is 750.234d this refers to someone who does not have a CPL and MUST OC. Now this is where they grand a person with a CPL a special privilege, as long as your pistol is not concealed, these pistol free zones do not apply.

So 28.435o does not mean a thing when you OC.
OC is governed by 750.234d, and exempts CPL holders.

I would encourage you to contact the Michigan State police. They are very helpful and usually quite quick in their replies.

And I have OCd in schools... I'm still a free man.

[Thanis]

...I would encourage you to contact the Michigan State police. They are very helpful and usually quite quick in their replies...And I have OCd in schools... I'm still a free man.

Ok, deal. As you appear to be experienced contacting the MSP and getting a reply (please don't read in any scarsm) how should I do this? I'll follow your directions, and post.

PS - If you OC on a school as a CPL holder, what level of authority is required at the school to ask you to leave because of the OC? Would it have to be posted? Because I believe that was the intent of the penal code, to let people know that the carry was not allowed at the school.

[Kimberguy]

Ok, deal. As you appear to be experienced contacting the MSP and getting a reply (please don't read in any scarsm) how should I do this? I'll follow your directions, and post.

PS - If you OC on a school as a CPL holder, what level of authority is required at the school to ask you to leave because of the OC? Would it have to be posted?

that I do not know. I have never seen it posted. So i'm really not sure.

now we are using schools as an example.... this would apply to all no carry zones. and as always private property rules do apply.

I Sent you a PM my friend

[Thanis]

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and will follow up with another post.

...I Sent you a PM my friend

Received. I responded to the MSP at:

MSP - Contact MSP

I sent the following:

---START---

Hope you can help.

I'm a CPL holder. I was having a discussion with a few people and I was informed that a non-law enforcement CPL holder can open-carry a pistol at a school. I'm not sure this is factual and ask that you please clarify.

I was told MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity and there are no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter.

I was told the following was clarified by Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, who stated, "...Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones."

I was also told Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District clarified it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder.

Thank you for looking into the issue.

---END---

The message I sent borrowed from another's post:

I hate to pipe in even before starting my official "new member" thread but the two people working the booth seem to be correct.

Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

[Kimberguy]

sounds good. now we sit and wait for a reply. and with that i am going to bed 2 hours past my bed time.
take care Thanis.

[Thanis]

BTW, in theory (assuming in MI if you have a CPL and are OC at a school) would a teacher, principal, or parent have the right to demand you to leave because of the OC even if you had a CPL?

The reason I ask this is because sometimes, when friends with children are in town, I leave the pistol at home when we head to a school playground on a weekend or after school hours (I live near a school). So if what everyone is stating is true, as long as I OC, I would be good on school grounds. MI is not always gun friendly, and I imagine other parent at the playground might not like to see a gun.

[Kimberguy]

BTW, in theory (assuming in MI if you have a CPL and are OC at a school) would a teacher, principal, or parent have the right to demand you to leave because of the OC even if you had a CPL?

The reason I ask this is because sometimes, when friends with children are in town, I leave the pistol at home when we head to a school playground on a weekend or after school hours (I live near a school). So if what everyone is stating i true, as long as I OC, I would be good on school grounds.

i would say if it is a private a school yes if it is a public school, no, but that is just my own opinion, and I truthfully do not know.

to you being on school grounds with the kids I would say yes you are fin if you OC. I have done that all the time, the fiancee lives near a school that is near a park. I OC all the time there because we cut through the school to get to the park. I have been directed into the school parking lot while OCing on my motorcycle by LEOs walked by them several times, and not a word.

<-----green light off!

[BikerRN]

The guy is a 'fruit loop'...run as far away from his advice as you can...

Don't take anyone's word for anything concerning CCW laws in your state. Get on the iNet and find out for yourself. This way you may insure that your concealed carry days will not be shortened.
OMO

After reading this post I knew I was done with this thread, as nothing more need be said.

Biker

[starshooter231]

I hate to pipe in even before starting my official "new member" thread but the two people working the booth seem to be correct.


“Your analysis is correct. [B]Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol.[B]

How can you say they are correct when your own post shows they are wrong?

[zigziggityzo]

How can you say they are correct when your own post shows they are wrong?

Because we're talking about open carry here, not concealed.

[zigziggityzo]

PS - If you OC on a school as a CPL holder, what level of authority is required at the school to ask you to leave because of the OC? Would it have to be posted? Because I believe that was the intent of the penal code, to let people know that the carry was not allowed at the school.

Legally, they can ask you to leave, but if it's public property, there's not really a way they can enforce the request. MCL 123.1102 preempts any form of local gov't from regulating the transportation and posession (among other things) of firearms. The only thing they can tell you you can't do is actually FIRE the firearm.

I would hope, to make your case easier, you would have a good reason to be at that school, else you may have a dance with the local prosecuting attorney for trespass charges (which could likely be dropped if you've got a good attorney, public building and all) or disorderly person charges (might stick if you're just visiting the school for the heck of it, no reason to be there).

Look, Bottom line here is this:

Open carry is legal in Michigan. If you have a CPL, Michigan allows you to carry EVERYWHERE in the state, so long as it's carried in a NON-CONCEALED fashion.

Open Carry is not for everyone. There's a lot of law to know, and a bit of harassment, even from fellow gun owners (as you can see here) when you do it. But the fact is: The second amendment, and the Michigan constitution guarantee the right to keep AND BEAR arms. You don't have to pay a $105 tax to bear arms. You can carry the gun as soon as you can legally own one (18 in MI). Open Carry is the way our founding fathers intended it, and a CPL just expands your rights.

So if you're going to do it, KNOW THE LAW. Read the law on http://legislature.mi.gov/ FIRST. Then, read the post titled WASH, RINSE, REPEAT Here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/17262.html . Then, repeat.

[David in MI]

How can you say they are correct when your own post shows they are wrong?

The fellas manning the gun show booth were stating that the open carry of a pistol in the so-called pistol-free zones is fine, as long as one has a CPL. That quote is regarding concealed pistols, not those carried openly. Confusing, isn't it?

Great thread. It is unfortunate, however, that one almost needs a J.D. to know where he can and cannot carry a pistol in Michigan.