Explain me this...

This is a discussion on Explain me this... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by David in MI Great thread. It is unfortunate, however, that one almost needs a J.D. to know where he can and cannot ...

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  1. #46
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in MI View Post
    Great thread. It is unfortunate, however, that one almost needs a J.D. to know where he can and cannot carry a pistol in Michigan.
    Well, if you're not opposed to paying the $105 tax to get your concealed carry license (or if you're not a resident, the tax+license in your home state), then it's easy: You can openly carry everywhere, so long as you're not under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

    If you don't have your CPL, then yes, it's that difficult. There's a lot of law to know. It would be nice if the NRA (or other gun rights organizations) offered courses for Open Carry or those willing to pay to learn instead of researching on their own.

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  3. #47
    Member Array David in MI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    Well, if you're not opposed to paying the $105 tax to get your concealed carry license (or if you're not a resident, the tax+license in your home state), then it's easy: You can openly carry everywhere, so long as you're not under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

    If you don't have your CPL, then yes, it's that difficult. There's a lot of law to know. It would be nice if the NRA (or other gun rights organizations) offered courses for Open Carry or those willing to pay to learn instead of researching on their own.
    I parted with the $105 eight days ago and am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my CPL but don't plan on open-carrying at this point.

  4. #48
    Member Array theghostrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    Well, if you're not opposed to paying the $105 tax to get your concealed carry license (or if you're not a resident, the tax+license in your home state), then it's easy: You can openly carry everywhere, so long as you're not under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

    If you don't have your CPL, then yes, it's that difficult. There's a lot of law to know. It would be nice if the NRA (or other gun rights organizations) offered courses for Open Carry or those willing to pay to learn instead of researching on their own.
    I understand you know about this, but a CPL holder cannot OC everywhere. Federal buildings, courtrooms, and prisoner holding areas are off limits. I realize that you are aware of this, but you must understand that not everyone who reads this board is as knowledgeable as you are.




    OBTW:
    I enjoyed the “quasi-LEO” comment. I’d really like to see a cite for that one. However, it really doesn’t apply to the current subject matter since the AS clarified it.
    The term "peace officer" refers to members of governmental police forces who have been given broad, general authority by law to enforce and preserve the public peace.People v Bissonette, 327 Mich 349, 356; 42 NW2d 113 (1950). Most governmental police officers, i.e., officers who are employed by the state or its political subdivisions, possess such authority and are, therefore, "peace officers." 1 OAG, 1955, No 1891, p 72 (February 24, 1955); 2 OAG, 1958, No 3212, p 60 (February 21, 1958). Conversely, police officers such as motor carrier enforcement officers who possess only restricted or special enforcement authority do not meet this standard and therefore do not qualify as "peace officers." People v Bissonette, supra; OAG, 1987-1988, No 6530, p 362 (August 5, 1988). Thus, a reserve police officer with limited law enforcement authority would not qualify as a "peace officer" under subsection 2 of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.
    Opinion #7101

    In relation to the current subject matter, there is no such thing as “quasi-LEO”. The MCL’s refer to “peace officer”, and the above opinion makes a clear distinction.

  5. #49
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theghostrider View Post
    I understand you know about this, but a CPL holder cannot OC everywhere. Federal buildings, courtrooms, and prisoner holding areas are off limits. I realize that you are aware of this, but you must understand that not everyone who reads this board is as knowledgeable as you are.
    Thanks for clarifying.

    Yes, Federal buildings fall under federal preemption. Thus, any federal building (including a post office) is off limits to any non-sworn officer.

    Courtrooms are off limits due to a Michigan Supreme Court order (Legislating from the bench). Violation of this court order puts you in contempt of court. Good luck trying, as most have metal detectors at the entrances anyway.

    "Sterile Zones" (prison holding areas, airport sterile areas) are not clearly defined in Michigan law, and I won't comment on those.

  6. #50
    New Member Array Kimberguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    Courtrooms are off limits due to a Michigan Supreme Court order (Legislating from the bench). Violation of this court order puts you in contempt of court. Good luck trying, as most have metal detectors at the entrances anyway.
    I will add that if you are in Hillsdale you can carry in their court building.
    that is the only one that I am aware of.

    we should all take their example

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theghostrider View Post
    ...I enjoyed the “quasi-LEO” comment. I’d really like to see a cite for that one. ...no such thing as “quasi-LEO”...
    Never once stated it was a legal term. For example, just the term LEO can get a person spliting hairs. It gets the point across, and I'm good with it. I don't want to define it to be peace-office, because frankly, I'm not LEO, a PI, a peace-officer, etc. Honestly, all I care about is how the law applies to me and the LEO. I understand the general need to be classifications for those somewhere between LEO (detectives, police, FBI, etc) and non-LEO, but given the subject matter, LEO vs quasi-LEO vs non-LEO does the short hand trick.


    Update: Have not heard from the MSP.
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  8. #52
    Member Array theghostrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Never once stated it was a legal term.


    Update: Have not heard from the MSP.
    My appologies. The point was that in regards to the current subject, there is either "peace officer", or citizen, and the AG's opinion makes those distinctions.

  9. #53
    New Member Array Kimberguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Update: Have not heard from the MSP.
    they will get back with you.

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    FYI, just to clarify for the general internet viewer, I'm just a smuck CPL holder trying to figure out in what ways certain types of carry are legal in MI according to MI law. So if you are not from MI, your state could be very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by theghostrider View Post
    My appologies. The point was that in regards to the current subject, there is either "peace officer", or citizen, and the AG's opinion makes those distinctions.
    Ahh, I see. And that is what I disagree with (because of what I have been told).

    I have been told the CPL permits the carry of concealed pistol(s) only. I was told this by more than one LEO (uniformed police officer) and my CCW instructor. I was told that once you revert to OC, the CPL no longer applies, per how the CPL is worded. Something I've asked a lot about, because in my opinion MI law is not very clear about it, and there are times I OC.

    When I say it is not clear, those living is SE MI might understand what I mean, as you get a big mix of pro-gun and anti-gun in the state (with not a lot of grey).

    I can't be sure what I was told was correct, but I was told it enought times, from different people, from different jurisdictions (including a MSP), I have taken it as the truth.

    I have been told some quasi-LEO (yes thats my term) have the authority to OC in some pistol free zones, but they don't have the authority to CC in those zones, and further don't have the authority to CC in public unless they are a CPL holder.

    So, how I put it together in my mind, was that there are three general categories (LEO, quasi-LEO, and non-LEO) and two carry options (CC with CPL & OC).

    LEO can CC and OC most everywhere.

    Quasi-LEO can OC in several areas non-LEO can't. However still must have a CPL to CC in public.

    Then non-LEO who have restrictions on OC and CC (even with the CPL).

    So, now I'm at the point where some of what I believe has been all put into question, so I'm in the process of contacting MSP to see if I can get something official. I will post my results.
    Last edited by Thanis; March 25th, 2009 at 02:44 AM.
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  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Still no word. Maybe next week I'll give them a call.
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  12. #56
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    It is always best not to listen to adice given by yahoos at gun shows.

    Find out what the law of your state is yourself by looking it up on the official State site that lists the laws for carrying a weapon.
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  13. #57
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    It is always best not to listen to adice given by yahoos at gun shows.

    Find out what the law of your state is yourself by looking it up on the official State site that lists the laws for carrying a weapon.

    I was the "yahoo." I don't appreciate being called names. This has been discussed in this thread.

    Michigan State Police legal update - under "Did you Know" section:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...7_198953_7.pdf

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...7_198956_7.pdf
    Thanks.

  14. #58
    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    etc.

    This is the law pertaining to the possession of firearms in general on the listed premises. It clearly exempts a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. --- You cannot be in possession of a firearm on these premises unless you have a cpl ---

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927

    ***** 28.425o.amended THIS AMENDED SECTION IS EFFECTIVE APRIL 6, 2009 *****


    28.425o.amended Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.

    (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.

    (c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the professional investigator licensure act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.

    (d) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.

    (e) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.

    (f) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a member of a sheriff's posse.

    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.

    (h) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.

    (i) A state court judge or state court retired judge who is licensed under this act. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a state court retired judge to obtain and carry a letter from the judicial tenure commission stating that the state court retired judge is in good standing as authorized under section 30 of article VI of the state constitution of 1963, and rules promulgated under that section, in order to qualify under this subdivision.

    (5) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

    (a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.

    (b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

    (c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.


    History: Add. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 719, Eff. July 1, 2003 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 194, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 406, Imd. Eff. Jan. 6, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 407, Eff. Apr. 6, 2009
    Popular Name: CCW
    Popular Name: Concealed Weapons
    Popular Name: Right to Carry
    Popular Name: Shall Issue

    Act 372 guides in the lawful possession of a CONCEALED pistol. 28.425o prior to the amendment date of April 06, 2009, does not contain the line subsection 4i. This subsection was added to allow judges the ability to be armed in their court rooms. This statute says you can not conceal your pistol in these places. 750.234d allows for possession by a person licensed to carry concealed. Nowhere in MCL does it state a DUTY to CONCEAL once you have your CPL. There is only one way to legally possess a pistol without concealing it, unless I am missing something.


    Opinion No. 7097
    January 11, 2002
    … A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

    “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…”
    Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

    Opinion No. 7113
    June 28, 2002

    ...It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized “peace officer” or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.
    JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM
    Attorney General


    All of this information is freely available. Most of it is available on the Michigan Legislature website, the rest is available from other bona fide trustworthy sources, such as the MSP website. Thanis is awaiting contact from the MSP, and his return e-mail will most likely be from Sgt. Deasy, who is quoted above. There is communication from a State Senator, and an AG opinion, that support the claims made at the gun show. I don't see how this can be more clear. Whether you choose to exercise it, or not, is your right. No one has said you won't be hassled, or even arrested. It would seem that an arrest for it would be illegal, though.I have openly carried in a bar, full of people, with no ill effect. Not even a comment. Please don't take this isolated incident as encouragement, just personal experience. Read and interpret this as you wish, it has already been laid out for you, across several posts, and has been beaten to death. I have just consolidated it. Thx

  15. #59
    New Member Array Kimberguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Update: Have not heard from the MSP.
    Still haven't heard from them eh?

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    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Zeller View Post
    I am from Michigan. I feel like I am now pretty up to date on the laws here after a lot of research and here on this forum (thanks guys). Saturday, at a local and very small gun show, there was a booth that had a couple of young bucks my age at it, 22-23. They proceeded to explain to my friends and I about open carry here in Michigan. They told us that it was legal to open carry in pistol free zones, including schools!!! My understanding is that my pistol is to stay off of school grounds unless picking up a person while still in my vehicle. Why would he be telling me as well as others this? I cannot find anywhere where it states that it is ok to walk into a school with a gun on my hip. I asked him had he done this and he said yes. Nobody thought anything of it. Correct me if this is true and an actual law but I just don't see how it could be if you are not LEO's.
    He is half right. He may be mistaking this new bill they are trying to introduce in Michigan about how people with CCL's will be exempt from off limit places... i.e. schools.

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