Explain me this...

This is a discussion on Explain me this... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Pro2A He is half right. He may be mistaking this new bill they are trying to introduce in Michigan about how people ...

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Thread: Explain me this...

  1. #61
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    He is half right. He may be mistaking this new bill they are trying to introduce in Michigan about how people with CCL's will be exempt from off limit places... i.e. schools.

    Helps to read the rest of this thread. We're talking about open carry here.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Still no word. I've been to busy to call, but no response via e-mail & via the link.

    Really comes down to a call, but just a few things going on during normal business hours, so no time to call.
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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Still no word. I really just need to call. Just busy at the wrong times. The goal is to get something official. Perhaps I'll write a letter snail mail.

    BTW, I spoke to a few people . They came away from their MI CCW class with an understanding from the instructor that when you become a CPL holder in some ways you can no longer OC without being in violation of the the CPL. From everyone I spoke to, their CCW instructor was also a off-duty LEO and NRA member.

    Now even when I was in the class, I felt the instructor was just saying play it safe, CC if you are a CPL holder.

    Please don't take what I've stated as a challenge or statement of fact, just passing on what I, and others, were told.
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  5. #64
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Still no word. I really just need to call. Just busy at the wrong times. The goal is to get something official. Perhaps I'll write a letter snail mail.

    BTW, I spoke to a few people . They came away from their MI CCW class with an understanding from the instructor that when you become a CPL holder in some ways you can no longer OC without being in violation of the the CPL. From everyone I spoke to, their CCW instructor was also a off-duty LEO and NRA member.

    Now even when I was in the class, I felt the instructor was just saying play it safe, CC if you are a CPL holder.

    Please don't take what I've stated as a challenge or statement of fact, just passing on what I, and others, were told.
    The problem with what you've been told is (besides the fact that it's incorrect) that it's just an opinion of some guy. If they can't reference Michigan law with their statement, or michigan case law, then there's no backbone to their statement.

    The same will hold true for what MSP says to you. If they don't back up their statement with law, it's just another opinion on the matter.

    Here's what the MSP has said as recently as June, 2008 on the matter:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...6_238184_7.pdf

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    The problem with what you've been told is (besides the fact that it's incorrect) that it's just an opinion of some guy. If they can't reference Michigan law with their statement, or michigan case law, then there's no backbone to their statement.

    The same will hold true for what MSP says to you. If they don't back up their statement with law, it's just another opinion on the matter.

    Here's what the MSP has said as recently as June, 2008 on the matter:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...6_238184_7.pdf

    Thanks for the link. It was a good read, but still leaves questions.
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  7. #66
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Thanks for the link. It was a good read, but still leaves questions.
    There are some older ones on the same subject (2005-6, I believe), I'll look them up now.

    EDIT:

    April 2007: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...7_198953_7.pdf
    May 2007 (pt II): http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...7_198956_7.pdf

    Both under the Did You Know? section.

    Also, check out this youtube video - news coverage from last year: YouTube - Open Carry Rally in Hastings Michigan (admins, it would be really sweet if you guys added the YouTube BBcode plugin)

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    -----Original Message-----
    From: Thomas Deasy <DeasyT@michigan.gov>
    To: ----------
    Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:21 pm
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Contact MSP Webmaster (ContentID - 22600)


    Mr. ----------,

    Michigan pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders who are openly carrying
    their pistol. However, schools are also federal firearms free zones. Although
    the federal statute is partially driven by state law, we are not aware of any
    court cases analyzing the interplay between Michigan and federal law as it
    relates to school zones. So, our recommendation is that CPL holders avoid
    carrying a pistol on school property.

    Sincerely,



    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441


    >>> MSP_Webmaster 3/24/2009 8:58 AM >>>
    Following is an email received by the MSP_Webmaster.


    >>> <ContactMSP@michigan.gov> 3/24/2009 1:47 AM >>>
    f01name: ----------
    f02address: ----------
    f03city: ----------
    f04state: MI
    f05zip: ----------
    f06phone: ----------
    f07email: ----------
    f07question: Hope you can help.

    I'm a CPL holder. I was having a discussion with a few people and I was
    informed that a non-law enforcement CPL holder can open-carry a pistol at a
    school. I'm not sure this is factual and ask that you please clarify.

    I was told MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity and there are no
    other additional relevant laws regarding this matter.

    I was told the following was clarified by Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State
    Police Executive Resource Section, who stated, "...Non-CPL pistol free zones do
    not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders
    carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol
    in Michigan's pistol free zones."

    I was also told Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District clarified it is
    legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed
    CPL holder.

    Thank you for looking into the issue.
    submit: SUBMIT
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  9. #68
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Still a little confused (as it is not 100% clear what is legal / illegal). Sounds to me like the answer is still no (ok by MI law but not federal), even if a CPL holder, you should not carry at a school, even if open carry.

    Am I wrong?
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  10. #69
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis
    Still a little confused (as it is not 100% clear what is legal / illegal). Sounds to me like the answer is still no (ok by MI law but not federal), even if a CPL holder, you should not carry at a school, even if open carry.

    Am I wrong?
    Sort of. Federal law states:

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
    zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
    that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
    individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
    access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
    authorities.
    This is the part he's talking about.

    What he's stating is that this statue has yet to have case law backing it. As in, the law very well may exempt permit holders from carrying in a school zone, but there's not yet been a case in which this law has been tested.

    The way I read both laws, It would seem that it is perfectly legal to openly carry a firearm in a school zone, as both state and federal laws are satisfied.

    A prosecutor might very well see differently than me. A jury would decide.

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    was confused at first about this; maybe it needs a new thread

    Here is the way I think my instructor stated it. Since I did not have a tape recorder running I am going from memory here.
    The way the law is worded;
    1. The gun free zones apply unless you have a CPL.

    2. The CPL law says you CANNOT carry CONCEALED in a gun free zone.
    (this BTW is what the back of the license says)

    The instructor went on to say that "Can you open carry at a school, according to the law yes, is it a good idea, NO, because someone will make a "Man with a gun call" and Police will respond!"

    The post below confused me at first because it mentions under section 750.234.d.1.a

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution

    I was confused because the CPL law makes no mention of financial institutions.

    In reading it then, I interpet it as;
    No carry in gun free zones/
    UNLESS you have a CPL/
    BUT you cannot CONCEALED carry in schools, theatres, etc,/
    BUT since financial institutions are NOT covered by the CPL, as Gun Free Zones where you must OPEN CARRY, then it is OK to carry CONCEALED in a financial institution


    QUOTE=Dtsyukfan;1085720]THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    etc.
    Thx[/I][/U][/QUOTE]

  12. #71
    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    That's right! "Tell him what he's won, Johnny!"

  13. #72
    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    Except the part where the instructor says not to do something in order to avoid stirring the pot. You've got to stand up once in a while in order to keep from being walked on.

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dtsyukfan View Post
    Except the part where the instructor says not to do something in order to avoid stirring the pot. You've got to stand up once in a while in order to keep from being walked on.
    I must be missing somerthing. Per the e-mail I received and posted from MSP, they said no OC if you are a CPL holder as you could face federal charges.

    I don't want to be the test subject that stirs the pot.
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  15. #74
    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    I must be missing somerthing. Per the e-mail I received and posted from MSP, they said no OC if you are a CPL holder as you could face federal charges.


    He did not say "no OC". He said MSP RECOMMENDS that you don't because you could face federal charges. Big difference there. You have INTERPRETED this as a rock solid DON'T DO IT, and rebroadcast it as such. This is where urban legends get their start.



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Thomas Deasy <DeasyT@michigan.gov>
    To: ----------
    Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:21 pm
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Contact MSP Webmaster (ContentID - 22600)


    Mr. ----------,

    Michigan pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders who are openly carrying
    their pistol. However, schools are also federal firearms free zones. Although
    the federal statute is partially driven by state law, we are not aware of any
    court cases analyzing the interplay between Michigan and federal law as it
    relates to school zones. So, our recommendation is that CPL holders avoid
    carrying a pistol on school property.

    Sincerely,



    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearmó
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
    that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;

    If you have a CPL, several things have happened:

    1. You have been exempted by the PFZ's under Michigan law according to an AG opinion, MSP Sgt's opinion, and a Senator's opinion. These are NOT law, but the AG opinions are leaned on heavily in court.

    2. You are licensed by Michigan to possess a handgun for concealment. Part of this process is that you pass a background check to verify that you fit the parameters indicated under Michigan law. Who performs the background check? Local law enforcement. This action is required by Michigan law. This seems to fit the description given above for Federal exemption.

    As Zigziggityzo indicated, and Sgt. Deasy, there is apparently no case law backing this up, and a prosecutor may try to fry someone, but a competent lawyer should be able to point out that a CPL holder fits both the State and Federal requirements. Unless the lawyer is sub-par, and the judge's spouse has cut him off recently, it SHOULD be a slam dunk. I am not ADVOCATING this, just reading that according to what is available, it is more than feasible.


    I don't want to be the test subject that stirs the pot.
    THAT, my friend, is the one solid reason you have for not doing it, and that is fine.
    Carry on.

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