Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI).

This is a discussion on Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI). within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just wanted to clarify the reasoning why CC to OC in public is considered an action that could lead to a charge (in a non-pistol ...

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Thread: Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI).

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Just wanted to clarify the reasoning why CC to OC in public is considered an action that could lead to a charge (in a non-pistol free zone).

    In some ways it is counter intuitive. As a CPL is required for CC, and MI is an OC state.

    The MI CPL authorizes, "...a pistol concealed on or about his or her person...Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed."

    Michigan Legislature

    So indirectly (however not 100% clear), a CPL holder is allowed to transition from OC to CC per the CPL permit in public. MI is an OC state. So if a person without a CPL were to sit in their car, they could be charged (I don't know the name of the charge) with CC with out a CPL. However a CPL holder can take this action.

    However, when you CC to OC, you are taking an action. That action is not defined by the law (I'm uncertain if it is for a non-LEO CPL holder in a pistol-free zones, I'm looking into that, however it clearly dos not define the action in a non-pistol free zone). If the action could be interpreted as threatining, reasonable standard applies, you could be charged or could loose your CPL. The word brandishing is sometimes used (follow by several people emo on the definition of the word).

    So to clarify, I'm just a smuck trying to make sense of some of the grey areas of MI carry laws, and there have been situations where the transition from one carry method to another (most notably CC to OC) was not considered authorized conduct of a CPL holder.

    Best bet, transition in private.

    In addition, there is a question if IWB holsters can be used as an OC holster. There have been situations where non-CPL holders have been charged for CC without a permit using IWB holsters (or similar carry method that is not clearly OC).

    There have also been a handful (more like one or two) situations where a CPL holder was charged for using an IWB holster as an OC.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Just wanted to clarify the reasoning why CC to OC in public is considered an action that could lead to a charge (in a non-pistol free zone).
    (snip)
    There have also been a handful (more like one or two) situations where a CPL holder was charged for using an IWB holster as an OC.
    (snip)
    I think the situations you are referring to involve NON CPL holders who use an IWB holster, in the case of a CPL the CC vs OC is a non issue except in cases of "pistol free zones"

  4. #18
    Member Array chains1240's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    I think the laws are fairly easy to understand. You basically can't conceal anywhere listed on the back of your CCW permit, and you can openly carry everywhere but a courtroom and a post office. What's so hard about that?

    I mean, it's not as easy as Vermont, but it's easy.
    I found this thread to be very interesting. I am 34 years old and received my CPL here in Michigan 5 years ago. I did not learn that Michigan was an open carry state until a year ago and I have NEVER seen anyone in Michigan in my life carry open. Perhaps that is where some of the confusion comes from. It may be an open carry state by law but maybe not by culture?

  5. #19
    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chains1240 View Post
    I found this thread to be very interesting. I am 34 years old and received my CPL here in Michigan 5 years ago. I did not learn that Michigan was an open carry state until a year ago and I have NEVER seen anyone in Michigan in my life carry open. Perhaps that is where some of the confusion comes from. It may be an open carry state by law but maybe not by culture?
    Open Carry as a culturally accepted activity has died for most of the nation, probably in the roaring '20s. It's still acceptable in some parts of the country, usually largely rural areas.

    I carry openly as a political statement. I would carry anyway for personal protection, but I choose to carry openly for the added deterrent, as well as the political statement.

    I have had situational awareness training, and regularly practice weapons retention techniques.

    Open Carry does require you to be more aware of your surroundings, because others know you're carrying. It's not for just anyone, but it should be a right for everyone!

    The Second Amendment needs to be incorporated like most of the rest of the Bill of Rights.

  6. #20
    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chains1240 View Post
    I found this thread to be very interesting. I am 34 years old and received my CPL here in Michigan 5 years ago. I did not learn that Michigan was an open carry state until a year ago and I have NEVER seen anyone in Michigan in my life carry open. Perhaps that is where some of the confusion comes from. It may be an open carry state by law but maybe not by culture?
    You may be right, but keep your eyes peeled when the weather starts warming up this spring. Lots of people are becoming aware of it, and exercising their right. I'd say 99% of people don't even notice when I carry openly. I ran into a guy in the Fenton Wal-mart last June carrying openly. I noticed immediately when he walked by the ammo counter. The other three people in line did not notice. When I got what I needed, I tracked him down and chatted with him for a few. He said nobody had ever bothered him, and I was the only person who had approached him at all. Outside of planned meetings, he's the only one I've seen. I was CC at the time, and hadn't ever OC'd at that point.

  7. #21
    Member Array chains1240's Avatar
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    I have been incorporating hiking into my "fitness" routine. You would understand the " " marks if you saw the pudge around my belly. Knowing that open carry is legal I should now look into carrying open while I hike in the Manistee National Forest. It would be more comfortable for me to holster my firearm on my backpack chest strap in the summer months and I rarely run into anyone anyhow. I just worry about the animals in the woods. We have big cats around here again.

  8. #22
    Member Array theghostrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    How about the process of CC to OC?

    In MI, say you were wearing an IWB holster. I know I'm being a little tedious, but it is based an a conversation I had with two LEO. I was told the CPL permit does not authorize the CPL holder to do this in public (authorize to carry a concealed pistol on person and in car). I was told (two seperate LEOs from different jurisdictions and my CCW instructor).

    I've read the relevant laws, and it can be read that way.

    I still have not received a response from MSP if a non-LEO CPL holder can transition from CC to OC in pistol free zones. However, thats not what I'm getting at, under that argument, it states, you can transition from CC to OC.

    They also clarified that if you OP, and enter your car, you would need a CPL. They also stated that a CPL holder could transition from in the car to OC (and the pre mentioned CC to OC problem would not apply, from car to outside car). They also stated you can OC to CC, in public, as long as you have a CPL (and it is not done in a non-threatening way).

    This sounds like a LOT of interpretation on the part of the LEO, and instructors. You should ask them to tell you exactly which MCL they are suggesting that one could be charged with. It’s entirely possible that some officers, and even some prosecutors would use this to harass a carrier, but I doubt it would get far since there is no law behind it. Just because your gun becomes inadvertently exposed, does not mean you brandished it.
    They are grasping at straws. There is already a AG opinion (#7101, seen at: Opinion #7101) that clearly states:

    Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases, none of the cases define the term.

    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

    Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.
    If LEO are using the brandishing statute to restrict OC or any transition from CC to OC, then they open themselves up to a potential liability to litigation in federal court for a 1983 civil rights violation. (see also here: Police Chief Magazine - View Article ). Carrying a gun in Michigan is legal (both concealed, and/or open), and therefore is not in and of itself Reasonable Suspicion to even detain someone.

    Many people in our modern society have been raised to fear anyone (except LEO) with a gun. That, however, does not make it a “reasonable” fear. As the above quotation from the AG opinion indicates, there must be “more” to justify a charge of brandishing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post


    The only thing they considered a problem is CC to OC (and my understanding of what they were trying to convay, is that a 3rd party could take it the wrong way, and so there was an elevated chance of loss of the CPL if CC to OC.

    Thoughts?
    Again, ask them to tell you what MCL that comes from. Based on some comments I’ve heard recently, it sounds like some (I might even call them “rogue”) officers or departments, are trying to say that any flashing or printing of a concealed weapon falls under the brandishing statute, or is in some other way illegal. The problem is that there is no law whatsoever that says this. There is no law that says, “it must be concealed”. The judge in the IWB case even cautioned the PA to not make it a OC case, because OC is legal. Nor is there any law prohibiting the inadvertent exposure of said concealed firearm, which is why they threaten with the brandishing, which I already covered.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Yep, Michigan is another state I can rule out retirement in. Laws too crazy!
    I'd rather retire here, than in say, Illinois, or Wisconsin.

  10. #24
    New Member Array autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I open carry when it suites me the environ I am in or the situation ... and I also CC when that is a better choice... like when it is snowin and blowin

    I haven't had a problems when OC'ing other than a few questions and a "nice Taurus from a local LEO"

    on the topic of CCW instructors opinions.. No disrespect to any here who may be instructors but many feel threatend by OC and feel that is will cut into their revenue or they feel that without their lame class you cannot properly handle a gun... Again If you have a less than lame class please don't take offense!

    The CCW instructor at the gun club I belong too is a rabid OC hater and as a result I am organizing an OC education day that will be open to the public and advertised in the local papers.

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    ..........
    The CCW instructor at the gun club I belong too is a rabid OC hater and as a result I am organizing an OC education day that will be open to the public and advertised in the local papers.
    Good for you. Got any set dates on that yet?

  12. #26
    New Member Array autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Not yet ... but it will be posted on the MI thread of the open carry forum as soon as I get the particulars worked out with the club president! He is all for it but wants to incorporate a pistol shoot at the end to give people a chance to see the fun recreational side of owning a hand gun as well!

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Not yet ... but it will be posted on the MI thread of the open carry forum as soon as I get the particulars worked out with the club president! He is all for it but wants to incorporate a pistol shoot at the end to give people a chance to see the fun recreational side of owning a hand gun as well!
    That is an excellent idea. You'll likely get even more people interested when they find out they can shoot afterwords.

  14. #28
    New Member Array autosurgeon's Avatar
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    We plan to say bring a gun holster glasses ear plugs and ammo and we will run folks through a short timed scenario!

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    If a reasonable person (MI is a "reasonable person" state) is threatened by this, it could be considered brandishing.

    As such, it would be prudent to transition from CC to OC in a private manner.
    While they might arrest you for brandishing, I think the charge would be thrown out, most likely. Since Michigan has no legal definition for brandishing, I'm told they would use the dictionary definition in court, and that goes something like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandishing
    –verb (used with object)
    1. to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish: Brandishing his sword, he rode into battle.
    –noun
    2. a flourish or waving, as of a weapon.
    Like I said though, they MIGHT arrest you for that. But I doubt that charge would hold up in court.

    Anyone want to try it?

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    We plan to say bring a gun holster glasses ear plugs and ammo and we will run folks through a short timed scenario!
    Those are always fun. Hell, if I don't have to work, I may drive out that way!

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