This is a discussion on Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI). within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just wanted to clarify the reasoning why CC to OC in public is considered an action that could lead to a charge (in a non-pistol ...
Just wanted to clarify the reasoning why CC to OC in public is considered an action that could lead to a charge (in a non-pistol free zone).
In some ways it is counter intuitive. As a CPL is required for CC, and MI is an OC state.
The MI CPL authorizes, "...a pistol concealed on or about his or her person...Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed."
So indirectly (however not 100% clear), a CPL holder is allowed to transition from OC to CC per the CPL permit in public. MI is an OC state. So if a person without a CPL were to sit in their car, they could be charged (I don't know the name of the charge) with CC with out a CPL. However a CPL holder can take this action.
However, when you CC to OC, you are taking an action. That action is not defined by the law (I'm uncertain if it is for a non-LEO CPL holder in a pistol-free zones, I'm looking into that, however it clearly dos not define the action in a non-pistol free zone). If the action could be interpreted as threatining, reasonable standard applies, you could be charged or could loose your CPL. The word brandishing is sometimes used (follow by several people emo on the definition of the word).
So to clarify, I'm just a smuck trying to make sense of some of the grey areas of MI carry laws, and there have been situations where the transition from one carry method to another (most notably CC to OC) was not considered authorized conduct of a CPL holder.
Best bet, transition in private.
In addition, there is a question if IWB holsters can be used as an OC holster. There have been situations where non-CPL holders have been charged for CC without a permit using IWB holsters (or similar carry method that is not clearly OC).
There have also been a handful (more like one or two) situations where a CPL holder was charged for using an IWB holster as an OC.
I carry openly as a political statement. I would carry anyway for personal protection, but I choose to carry openly for the added deterrent, as well as the political statement.
I have had situational awareness training, and regularly practice weapons retention techniques.
Open Carry does require you to be more aware of your surroundings, because others know you're carrying. It's not for just anyone, but it should be a right for everyone!
The Second Amendment needs to be incorporated like most of the rest of the Bill of Rights.
I have been incorporating hiking into my "fitness" routine. You would understand the " " marks if you saw the pudge around my belly. Knowing that open carry is legal I should now look into carrying open while I hike in the Manistee National Forest. It would be more comfortable for me to holster my firearm on my backpack chest strap in the summer months and I rarely run into anyone anyhow. I just worry about the animals in the woods. We have big cats around here again.
They are grasping at straws. There is already a AG opinion (#7101, seen at: Opinion #7101) that clearly states:
If LEO are using the brandishing statute to restrict OC or any transition from CC to OC, then they open themselves up to a potential liability to litigation in federal court for a 1983 civil rights violation. (see also here: Police Chief Magazine - View Article ). Carrying a gun in Michigan is legal (both concealed, and/or open), and therefore is not in and of itself Reasonable Suspicion to even detain someone.Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases, none of the cases define the term.
In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."
Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.
Many people in our modern society have been raised to fear anyone (except LEO) with a gun. That, however, does not make it a “reasonable” fear. As the above quotation from the AG opinion indicates, there must be “more” to justify a charge of brandishing.
I open carry when it suites me the environ I am in or the situation ... and I also CC when that is a better choice... like when it is snowin and blowin
I haven't had a problems when OC'ing other than a few questions and a "nice Taurus from a local LEO"
on the topic of CCW instructors opinions.. No disrespect to any here who may be instructors but many feel threatend by OC and feel that is will cut into their revenue or they feel that without their lame class you cannot properly handle a gun... Again If you have a less than lame class please don't take offense!
The CCW instructor at the gun club I belong too is a rabid OC hater and as a result I am organizing an OC education day that will be open to the public and advertised in the local papers.
Not yet ... but it will be posted on the MI thread of the open carry forum as soon as I get the particulars worked out with the club president! He is all for it but wants to incorporate a pistol shoot at the end to give people a chance to see the fun recreational side of owning a hand gun as well!
We plan to say bring a gun holster glasses ear plugs and ammo and we will run folks through a short timed scenario!
Like I said though, they MIGHT arrest you for that. But I doubt that charge would hold up in court.Originally Posted by Brandishing
Anyone want to try it?