Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI).

This is a discussion on Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI). within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm just a little confused by something. I've been told by LEO that a IWB holster is an exposed CC (that for it to be ...

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Thread: Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI).

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Legal issues with CC to OC carry (MI).

    I'm just a little confused by something. I've been told by LEO that a IWB holster is an exposed CC (that for it to be OC, it has to be an OWB holster). Is this true?

    What are the legalities of transitioning from CC to OC. I'd like to hear a few thoughts.

    Please don't jump on my butt, I'm not saying there are legal issues, I'm just wondering if there are.

    Here is why.

    From personal experiance, a family acquaintance who was CCing a shoulder holster (MI CPL holder, I think this was before "shall-issue", he was in a retail store in MI). Clean cut, suit and tie, business owner dealing with a lot of cash drop offs. He took off a suit coat, and tried on a coat at Sears.

    Store called LEO. He did face an hour or so of LEO questioning. They let him go, but stated they may press charges. A few days later, he was told he needed to turn in his CPL. He lawyered up, because as I stated, he was an established business owner dealing with a lot of cash drop offs. The gave him a warning.

    I don't know all the details, maybe the issue was going OC at the store, and maybe they there were private vs public properity issues.

    IDK. Can anyone tell me what charge he could have faced.
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  3. #2
    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    Good morning, Thanis. Things have changed a lot in the past couple of years in Michigan. Hassle for openly carrying a handgun used to be the norm. On private property, if you uncover or are discovered to be carrying, the owner or agent can ask you to leave. If you don't, you can be charged with trespass. As far as the type of holster, there is no clear definition in the law. AG opinion simply states "in a holster". This is where LEO, prosecutor, and judge opinions come in. As far as I'm concerned, a holster is a holster is a holster. Since OC is becoming more known and accepted, less issues should arise, and with a CPL, you should be covered for any situation. No telling what Opinion Enforcement Officer you may encounter at any given time, though.

    BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.

    Exerpt from John R. Dethmers AG opinion #3158:
    "The statute does not mean or import that no part of the weapons
    should be concealed, but the offense is only committed when the
    weapon is so concealed that it is impossible for one approaching in
    view of the person carrying the weapon to see any part of it. All
    that the Legislature meant when it prohibited the carrying of
    concealed weapons was to compel persons to so wear them that others
    who might come in contact with them might see that they were armed
    and dangerous persons, who were to be avoided in consequence, for,
    if it should be required that no part of the weapon should be
    concealed, the statute would amount to an infringement of the constitutional right of citizens to have and bear arms, since it
    would be impossible for one to have and bear about his person a
    pistol or weapon of any kind without having some part of it
    concealed. (Stockdale v. State, 32 Ga. 225, 227).

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    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    Ask the officer for the MCL number of the law he is referencing. If he has simply been told this by another officer, his research will be educational for himself, and others. Trade e-mails or phone numbers, or contact his boss and ask HIM these questions. Hold them to their job, upholding written law, not opinion. Most likely your friend was let off and "warned" because his lawyer was able to prove he did nothing illegal, assuming, of course, that he was not actually asked to leave. Hope this helps.

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    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Dtsyukfan pretty much gave a great answer here.

    There's a case in court *right now* regarding an individual who did NOT have his CPL and was carrying in an IWB holster.

    At the time of the incident, the officer happened to be present and noticed the gun, hassled him, then let him drive off with it in a case in his trunk (No arrest was made). Some days later, he received notice of his violation and court date.

    The issue at hand is whether a "Reasonable person" would be able to determine that he was carrying a gun in an open fashion. This case will be very important for the future, as you may be able to tell.

    Thanks to Michigan's "Reasonable Person" laws, this has to be tested in the courts in this way to set precedent for the rest of us.

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    Exclamation

    He plead to a lesser charge.

    He's young and was afraid of getting a felony CCW along with the mounting legal bill.

    Until there is actual precedence we must tell those without a CPL to never wear IWB.

    If you have a CPL, you're fine either way.

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    How about the process of CC to OC?

    In MI, say you were wearing an IWB holster. I know I'm being a little tedious, but it is based an a conversation I had with two LEO. I was told the CPL permit does not authorize the CPL holder to do this in public (authorize to carry a concealed pistol on person and in car). I was told (two seperate LEOs from different jurisdictions and my CCW instructor).

    I've read the relevant laws, and it can be read that way.

    I still have not received a response from MSP if a non-LEO CPL holder can transition from CC to OC in pistol free zones. However, thats not what I'm getting at, under that argument, it states, you can transition from CC to OC.

    They also clarified that if you OP, and enter your car, you would need a CPL. They also stated that a CPL holder could transition from in the car to OC (and the pre mentioned CC to OC problem would not apply, from car to outside car). They also stated you can OC to CC, in public, as long as you have a CPL (and it is not done in a non-threatening way).

    The only thing they considered a problem is CC to OC (and my understanding of what they were trying to convay, is that a 3rd party could take it the wrong way, and so there was an elevated chance of loss of the CPL if CC to OC.

    Thoughts?
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    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    How about the process of CC to OC?

    In MI, say you were wearing an IWB holster. I know I'm being a little tedious, but it is based an a conversation I had with two LEO. I was told the CPL permit does not authorize the CPL holder to do this in public (authorize to carry a concealed pistol on person and in car). I was told (two seperate LEOs from different jurisdictions and my CCW instructor).

    I've read the relevant laws, and it can be read that way.

    I still have not received a response from MSP if a non-LEO CPL holder can transition from CC to OC in pistol free zones. However, thats not what I'm getting at, under that argument, it states, you can transition from CC to OC.

    They also clarified that if you OP, and enter your car, you would need a CPL. They also stated that a CPL holder could transition from in the car to OC (and the pre mentioned CC to OC problem would not apply, from car to outside car). They also stated you can OC to CC, in public, as long as you have a CPL (and it is not done in a non-threatening way).

    The only thing they considered a problem is CC to OC (and my understanding of what they were trying to convay, is that a 3rd party could take it the wrong way, and so there was an elevated chance of loss of the CPL if CC to OC.

    Thoughts?
    If a reasonable person (MI is a "reasonable person" state) is threatened by this, it could be considered brandishing.

    As such, it would be prudent to transition from CC to OC in a private manner.

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    Member Array Dtsyukfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    If a reasonable person (MI is a "reasonable person" state) is threatened by this, it could be considered brandishing.

    As such, it would be prudent to transition from CC to OC in a private manner.
    I have gone into restaurants CC quite a few times, and casually removed my coat, exposing my firearm before I sit down. I have also taken my outer shirt off in large parking lots like Home Depot, exposing my CC. I haven't been called out on it. I think your assessment is a stretch, only for the reason that removing an outer garment isn't really any different than stepping out of a car OC in a crowded lot. If it causes one person out of five to feel threatened, are the other four the UNreasonable ones? I can see your point if you were directly addressing a person you don't know, and exposed your CC in the middle of the conversation, and obviously if there was any sort of disagreement or confrontation before you were to expose. In those instances, prudence would say to stay covered. In general, though, I think casual OC is more common than anyone realizes. I have removed my coat on a sidewalk in a pretty highbrow town, on the busy main road, and other people on the sidewalk, and didn't send anyone screaming and crying. Lots of CPL instructors have taught lots of people the incorrect idea of duty to conceal. There is no law stating a duty to conceal. If there is no duty to conceal, there is no restriction on time or place to uncover, beyond hostile situations during which the act would be considered brandishing. JMO

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    If a reasonable person (MI is a "reasonable person" state) is threatened by this, it could be considered brandishing.

    As such, it would be prudent to transition from CC to OC in a private manner.
    With respect to other posts, I think this makes sense as to what the CCW instructor and LEOs were trying to state.
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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    So in summary, the grey areas of MI carry laws are,

    IWB holster (even if used as OC) may require a CPL.

    Might be best to transition from CC to OC in a private manner.

    Per other thread, I'm looking into the non-LEO CPL holder legal OC in MI pistol-free zones.

    In general non-firearm zones are off limits period per federal law.

    This soulnd about right?
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    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    In general non-firearm zones are off limits period per federal law.

    This soulnd about right?
    I do believe federal law allows for states to exempt people with permits. The state of Michigan does this with the Michigan CPL. You may openly cary in all pistol-free zones, except federal buildings (federal pre-emption, this includes post offices), and courtrooms (Michigan Supreme court order, violating this puts you in contempt of court, and is not a gun-related charge).

    Edit to add:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
    that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
    individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
    access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
    authorities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzo View Post
    I do believe federal law allows for states to exempt people with permits. The state of Michigan does this with the Michigan CPL. You may openly cary in all pistol-free zones, except federal buildings (federal pre-emption, this includes post offices), and courtrooms (Michigan Supreme court order, violating this puts you in contempt of court, and is not a gun-related charge).

    Edit to add:

    Ziggy, have you tried this or know of anyone who has? I would love to be able to carry in church in MI and a number of the other "gun free zones" but not sure I want to be a test case for it.
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    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecbaatz View Post
    Ziggy, have you tried this or know of anyone who has? I would love to be able to carry in church in MI and a number of the other "gun free zones" but not sure I want to be a test case for it.
    I've carried at a high school musical without issue. As well as a movie theater.

    Church is one I haven't done.

    Remember: An exception to the concealed carry clause is that with the owner/pastor/church board's (preferably written) permission, you may
    conceal carry on the premises. Open Carry at church is legal with your CPL, but you can still be asked to leave or face trespass charges.

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    Yep, Michigan is another state I can rule out retirement in. Laws too crazy!
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    Ex Member Array zigziggityzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Yep, Michigan is another state I can rule out retirement in. Laws too crazy!
    I think the laws are fairly easy to understand. You basically can't conceal anywhere listed on the back of your CCW permit, and you can openly carry everywhere but a courtroom and a post office. What's so hard about that?

    I mean, it's not as easy as Vermont, but it's easy.

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