First experience open carry, probably the last - Page 4

First experience open carry, probably the last

This is a discussion on First experience open carry, probably the last within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have said this before on the forum. I'll type it again. Pennsylvania citizens have the right to open carry but, many cities (like Pittsburgh) ...

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Thread: First experience open carry, probably the last

  1. #46
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    I have said this before on the forum. I'll type it again.

    Pennsylvania citizens have the right to open carry but, many cities (like Pittsburgh) and other smaller boroughs and municipalities have local laws that require the police to investigate any and all "Man With A Gun" 911 calls.

    Is that a "screw up" in the way the laws are set up?
    Yes, absolutely it is.
    But, it is what it is until that changes.

    So while you will eventually be allowed to go on your "merry way" after they run you for your priors, criminal history, outstanding warrants, unpaid parking tickets, & whatever....the way things are now - If somebody drops a dime on you because they spot your firearm and - then DO expect to be detained and approached by Police as if you are a "person unknown" with a gun.


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I have said this before on the forum. I'll type it again.

    Pennsylvania citizens have the right to open carry but ...
    The OP is from MN, IIRC.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  3. #48
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    Thumbs up ccw9mm

    I hear ya. - Posted as general information to be researched in every state - since many states that are technically OK for Open Carry share the same type of nasty and sneaky little conflicting "thorn in the side" local 911 "Man w/ a Gun" Police regs/procedures.

    It's a totally messed up obvious conflict in Citizen right to carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The OP is from MN, IIRC.
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    VIP Member Array Dal1Celt's Avatar
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    Stand up and be counted or kneel down and be a subject the choice is yours!

    I hope you have the courage to STAND up and be a roll model for your area!

    For the record I OC and CC. My opinion is do want you feel comfortable with doing!

    Remember we all stand behind you!
    "Without fear there can be no Courage!"

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    An officer walking up behind you and grabbing your gun is putting themselves, you and innocent bystanders in serious danger. Not only was this probably illegal (I think it would qualify as an assault), it was definitely irresponsible and unquestionably dangerous.

    If my gun leaves my holster in a public place, it's a Bad Thing(tm) and there better be a DAMN good reason for it.

    In your position, I might well have ended up dead. As you said, if you hadn't noticed they were cops it would've been "someone grabbing your gun" and in my case that would probably mean a very sharp knife running very quickly up the offending arm -- with a second or less of actual "threat determination"...

    Utterly dangerous and foolish. Whatever you do, you can't just drop this. If you're going the legal route -- then I applaud you. If you aren't going the legal route, you at least need to talk to the superiors of those officers.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  6. #51
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I have said this before on the forum. I'll type it again.

    Pennsylvania citizens have the right to open carry but, many cities (like Pittsburgh) and other smaller boroughs and municipalities have local laws that require the police to investigate any and all "Man With A Gun" 911 calls.

    Is that a "screw up" in the way the laws are set up?
    Yes, absolutely it is.
    But, it is what it is until that changes.

    So while you will eventually be allowed to go on your "merry way" after they run you for your priors, criminal history, outstanding warrants, unpaid parking tickets, & whatever....the way things are now - If somebody drops a dime on you because they spot your firearm and - then DO expect to be detained and approached by Police as if you are a "person unknown" with a gun.

    actually, in PA, the open carry of a gun doesn't provide RAS for LEOs. Commonwealth v. Ortiz and Commonwealth v. Hawkins have already established that. also, local municipalities can not pass local ordinances in regards to firearms, or the method of carry. in short, a guy open carryng in PA is not grounds for a stop'n'search. "man-with-a-gun" calls only require that LEOs show up and ask questions, not detain, disarm, or arrest an individual open carrying. doing so is illegal, pretty much.

    unfortunately, there are some LEOs in some municipalities who don't know that, or worse, don't care. the latter is more common in Philly and Pittsburgh. the issue is being resolved, however; the MPOETC memo this year has included an open carry update to the Uniform Firearms Act, and ALL LEO agencies in the state of PA are required to know it now. so, no more excuses.

    From the MPOETC training booklet:

    course 09-201, pg. 45 Uniform Firearms Act Update: "Open Carry".

    Question #1 What is "open carry"?

    Answer #1 Open carry can be defined as carrying a legal firearm, loaded or unloaded, on your person unconcealed, with or without a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm.

    Question #2 Is "Open Carry" legal in Pennsylvania?

    Answer #2 Yes, but with several exceptions: The Pennsylvania Uniform firearms Act is silent on the specific issue of open carry. 6106only prohibits carrying a firearm in a vehicle or concealed on or about one's person, except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, without a license and when no exemption applies.

    Carrying a firearm unconcealed on one's person does not violate 6106. However, a person who engaging in "open carry" of a firearm violates 6106 when that person enters a vehicle with the gun in his possession and that person does not possess a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm and is not exempt from licensing. Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm possession is generally restricted.
    there's a bit more, but you get the idea.

  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I wasn't going to comment until this poster accused the majority of this forum, dedicated to concealed carry, of being craven. Just for clarification, the word craven means cowardly or contemptibly fainthearted.

    Bye, bye. You won't be missed.

    By the way, is it craven of you to slink away after making a defamatory accusation or hypocritical if you come back and respond?
    SD, has The Factor contacted you yet about sitting in for O'Reilly when he's out?
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1John5vs7 View Post
    I've stopped posting here more or less for this reason. The more I read about encounters between law enforcement and the law-abiding public, or between suspicious law-breakers and law-abiding citizens, the more disgusted and fed-up with the general population of this forum.

    This will be the last time I ever come to this forum though, because there's simply no support for people exercising their rights and way too much cowardly, craven behavior. CCing is all fine and good if that's what you WANT to do, but if you WANT to OC and you get crap from the cops for doing what is LEGAL, the folks at defensivecarry.com should be the last people on earth to give you crap about it.

    I say this not because I am some high-profile poster that people will be heart-broken to lose. I am simply letting the people reading know that I am a member of the forum, I do read, I post occasionally, and I won't be doing so anymore. If I am the only one who feels this way, then you may all click your heels and rejoice in your new-forged unity. If, however, I am one of many, as I suspect I am, who is annoyed by this trend in forum-wide behavior, then perhaps it will give people pause for thought about what the Constitution says.

    Good day, and God bless you,
    David Stratton
    Sure would be a shame if the members of the minority party elected to office just up and quit because everyone didn't agree with them. I find that the wide range of opinions and the debate on the forum are what make it worth my while to come here. If everyone just agreed all the time then why bother?

    You do a disservice to your position to just up and quit. You would be valued much more to stay and challenge the postion of those you disagree with in an educated and thought provoking manner.

    I'm pretty sure this was a forum and not a magazine. With a magazine, you cancel your subscription if the content doesn't meet your needs. With a forum, the content is made up by the members and if you want the forum to meet your needs then you need to post to it. Unless of course, you are unable to stand having your postion challenged which would be my guess since you throw you opinion in everyone's face and then vowed to quit.

    Good day, and God bless you as well.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I wasn't going to comment until this poster accused the majority of this forum, dedicated to concealed carry, of being craven. Just for clarification, the word craven means cowardly or contemptibly fainthearted.

    As stated it is about defensive carry.
    Notwithstanding the tactical advantages of concealed carry, which we cannot discuss, the fact is that those who choose to open carry should be aware that their day might be negatvely affected despite that it is not illegal in certain jurisdictions.

    So if someone is legally open carrying they should expect it and thats OK? On the other hand you would scream bloody murder if someone saw you print and had this done to you.



    By the way, David in Fl responded that it was an attempt at humor, though I will simply say that many confrontations can be easily eliminated.

    Would this mean everybody does it your way?



    Some enjoy the confrontation and the chance of becoming rich by suing. Others just want to protect themselves and their familiy while going about their day.

    You always have ALL the answers...



    Bye, bye. You won't be missed.

    Hope you are speaking for yourself.


    By the way, is it craven of you to slink away after making a defamatory accusation or hypocritical if you come back and respond?
    Is it bravery to be bold and abrasive on the board SD?
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  10. #55
    Member Array Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carver View Post
    The state of LA has open carry laws that allow the common citizen to carry open, but don't try it! You will go to jail!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    It needs to be fought. I am not a real proponent of open carry, but, if its legal where you live and you want to fight for that right, then jail may be necessary.

    I would like to point out that Louisiana does not have open carry laws, but a lack of laws that prohibit open carry.

    Also, there is a man from Baton Rouge, LA named Mark Edward Marchiafava. He was wrongly arrested in Gonzales, Louisiana last year. He sued, and won.

    Mark used his award to purchase matching motorcycles for him and his wife, which another member from opencarry.org named "The Freedom Cycles".

    If you look closely, you can see that Mark's license plate reads "Thanks, Gonzales Police Department.

    Freedom Cycle - Louisiana - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum



    Kevin Jensen
    Utah State Researcher,
    www.opencarry.org

  11. #56
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I have said this before on the forum. I'll type it again.

    Pennsylvania citizens have the right to open carry but, many cities (like Pittsburgh) and other smaller boroughs and municipalities have local laws that require the police to investigate any and all "Man With A Gun" 911 calls.

    Is that a "screw up" in the way the laws are set up?
    Yes, absolutely it is.
    But, it is what it is until that changes.

    So while you will eventually be allowed to go on your "merry way" after they run you for your priors, criminal history, outstanding warrants, unpaid parking tickets, & whatever....the way things are now - If somebody drops a dime on you because they spot your firearm and - then DO expect to be detained and approached by Police as if you are a "person unknown" with a gun.
    It is true that in some jurisdictions "investigations" must be conducted regarding 911 calls. HOWEVER, that "investigation" is not required to consist of a Terry Stop.

    Police Chief Magazine - View Article

    The police can simply show up and observe, and if they observe no behavior warranting suspicion of a crime, they CANNOT conduct a Terry stop based upon a 911 report of a person who is engaged in perfectly legal behavior. Notice the above article was written by a Massachusettes lawyer!

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array DrLewall's Avatar
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    It would have been so cool if only the PD would have only asked and verified and then let you go on your way as the frightend sheep who called on you watches at the cops leave the building and you remained armed! Maybe next time?
    "Brains before Bullets"

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    As stated it is about defensive carry.
    The name of the forum is DefensiveCarry but I'm sure you are familiar with Forum Rule 1,

    1. Although we have a number of other forums here, we are primarily focused on concealed carry.

    In fact, it was only recently that Bumper allowed any open carry discussion at all because inevitably those threads result in exactly the type of insults and name calling the poster wrote.

    Interestingly, it is against forum rules to advocate the virtues of open carry, a rule often violated. And we are impotent to respond to explain to new readers that exactly the incident that is the topic of this thread is a potential result of open carry.

    Hope you are speaking for yourself.
    I always speak for myself. However, I am certain that others were also offended by an open carrier calling all concealed carriers cowardly and contemptible.

    Is it bravery to be bold and abrasive on the board SD?
    Let's see. A poster comes to a concealed carry forum, claims he will no longer read or post here and insults and demeans the vast majority of participants, calling us cowardly and craven. And you think I'm abrasive????

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    MN is a licensed OC state, correct?

    I'd have to follow up on that one officially. Completely uncalled for and unprofessional. I hope you have the names of the officers involved.

    Of course, it never would have happened had you been cc'ing......

    Sorry, someone had to say it!
    It does NOT matter if he was OC'ing or CC'ing. If he was legal he was legal!

    Do not let this go. Get an attorney and force them apologize and compensate you. And keep them from pulling this crap on anyone else exercising their rights just because they don't like anyone else having a gun but them. That is B.S.!

    Please, get counsel and follow up on this. Also please, keep us up to date. And go over to OpenCarry.org and post about this experience. Many people there who need to know about this crap as well.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1John5vs7 View Post
    I've stopped posting here more or less for this reason. The more I read about encounters between law enforcement and the law-abiding public, or between suspicious law-breakers and law-abiding citizens, the more disgusted and fed-up with the general population of this forum.

    It seems most people not only take the "it's your fault for being in that situation" stance, they take it PROUDLY, as is evidenced in this poster's statement. S/he seems to think they are somehow clever for pointing out that if the protagonist were cravenly stashing his weapon in a pocket or a CC holster, he would be much the wiser.

    There was another post a while back about a gentleman who drew his weapon on a guy who appeared to be strangling a young woman in the parking lot of his gun store. The response was similar: it's your fault for being in that situation, how dare you draw a weapon, etc. etc.

    In this country, we have a RIGHT to arm ourselves, we have a RIGHT to protect ourselves and our families, and we have a RESPONSIBILITY to protect the lives and safety of those around us, in the hope that they will do the same for us when push comes to shove.




    So As I look at this you support the 2A-but only if it suits you-the 1A doesn't apply? The postings here are opinions-another right by the Constitution. Maybe you should stay away from any forum as there will always be someone with a different opinion. I welcome different opinions as I may look at things from a different angle-criticism or not. I take that angle and hopefully will learn by it. As for the topic of this post I see a lot of problems-mostly on the LE side. IMO I carry concealed to avoid this, BUT to each his own, I have no problem with people carrying OC-that is their preference.
    Last edited by JD; April 15th, 2009 at 11:08 AM.
    Expecting a carjacker or rapist or drug pusher to care that his possession or use of a gun is unlawful is like expecting a terrorist to care that his car bomb is taking up two parking spaces.-Joseph T. Chew

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