This is a discussion on Hooksett, NH cop acts belligerent and uses profanity to Law-Abiding Citizen for OCing within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SelfDefense Acting like a jerk is not illegal either. It is not something to be proud of. He was within the law ...
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. ~ Albert Einstein
Sig P229 DAK - .40 S&W
Ruger SP101 - .357 Mag
It's one thing to open carry as a normal everyday occurrence, but to walk around open carry just to instigate an incident with the local police is just wrong. It seems he did the right thing for the wrong reason.
One more step and it's on!
"In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." -
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero
Let's sum up this thread:
Doobie didn't break any laws by OCing and refusing to provide information.
The officer didn't break any laws by stopping to talk to Doobie. There is nothing wrong with an officer talking to a citizen; the officer did nothing wrong by asking some questions. The officer clarified that Doobie was free to go as soon as the question was asked.
The officer was unprofessional with his language, but no rights were infringed with a couple of swear words.
The debate seems to be centered around if Doobie's methods and attitude are helpful or harmful to the cause. Seems to me the answer to this is an opinion. Lighten up and voice your opinion or move on without commenting.
The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD
Someone forwarded a link to this thread to me, and said I would be interested. That's an understatement...
It's further a matter of caselaw and AG's recorded opinion that mere carry of a firearm can not be considered evidence of criminal intent.
If the officer had escalated it to a formal detention, as a previous poster suggested he would/should, the officer would be in violation of the law. If the officer had drew his sidearm, as that poster also suggested, the officer would be committing a felony (criminal threatening with a firearm), and his victim could announce a citizen's arrest of that officer. Granted, trying to take his prisoner into custody would probably be a bad idea, but the fact that the officer did not comply with a lawful arrest would constitute several other crimes, which would be useful in getting him locked away for a long, long time. There are also Federal laws in play in that hypothetical, given that the officer was obviously acting to suppress a protected civil right. If it was a premeditated act, and he conspired with others, he could be facing the death penalty for that action.
(note: I'm not a lawyer, although I did study law for my own education, so be responsible and do your own research, or hire a professional to do it for you, before making any life-altering decisions)
(additional note: for anyone who's going to accuse me of "cop-bashing," my father was a police officer for nearly half a century by the time he retired. I'm not bashing "cops," here - I'm bashing punks with badges who break the laws they claim to enforce, and endanger the safety of their brothers and sisters in blue by needlessly antagonizing even decent folks)
Maybe I was just raised a bit differently, but where I come from, that sort of behavior is not considered mature, respectful, or responsible.
Several individuals have commented that the officer had an obligation to respond to the call. Maybe I can present a bit of an anecdote: I was camping a few years ago at a private campground and, given that it was a hot summer, I certainly wasn't bothering to conceal. Nor were the friends I was camping with. Some folks from CT drove in and parked a few lanes down. This campground had an agreement with the local sheriff's office to have twice-daily patrols (we later learned - we had just arrived that day). When the afternoon patrol came through, he turned up the road that passed the CT folks. They started gesturing at us and babbling about guns and such. The deputy responded quite clearly, "it's not illegal - go away if you don't like it." They packed right back up and left.
That is the correct response to a report of someone minding his own business, who happens to have a gun. That's it. Anything beyond that is just childish power-tripping.
And no, they don't open themselves up to liability. The Supreme Court has been quite explicit on that. They could know for a fact that you are being murdered, sit around and wait for your assailant to finish, and then deal with the aftermath, and they would have no liability.
As far as whether Doobie is being helpful or harmful... an old-time cop once told me that the only thing he hated worse than criminals was dirty cops who disrespected their duty to the people they are supposed to serve and protect. In that light, anything which throws light on such individuals is a good thing. I'm not worried about "backlash" against gun owners from these sorts of incidents, either. I realize that might be a concern in some areas where gun rights are a hard-fought and uphill battle, but ours are not exactly in danger, here. Last year, a legislator (who moved here from CA, I believe) tried to ban guns from the statehouse. I know that so many showed up to testify against it (including the security guards, who rely on those of us to carry in order to make the building safe), that she ended up voting against her own bill in disgrace, and I do believe that the Democrats kicked her hour of their party for even proposing it.
In summary, I only live a few miles from where this happened. I have to say that I am quite displeased. This is certainly not how I want my neighbors being treated, and I hope that Doobie makes a formal complaint about the unacceptable, disrespectful, and immature behavior of that officer.
Yep, we can tell. Also not worried about gun owners being perceived as immature jerks perpetuating the image that Brady and the Media are so eager to spread to those who had not made their minds about the 2A.I'm not worried about "backlash" against gun owners from these sorts of incidents, either.
Your assumption and Dobbie's is that what we have now cannot be lost ever again and that is a frightening state of mind. The terrain lost with the different Gun control Acts, Assault Weapons bans and other idiocies took a lot of effort and a lot of work against a well coordinated front who had us portrayed as uncouth rednecks. It took decades of effort to prove them wrong and the job is not finished by a mile. Right now there are students in colleges and universities across the nation being harassed and academically prosecuted for passing pro 2A pamphlets, discussing DC v Heller or simply wearing an empty holster. They do have my respect because they are truly risking their futures on something they believe in and they are not doing it while holding a video camera and then seeking ego stroking by posting it in YouTube. I posted it before, if Doobie wants to impress me, OC in a Non OC state and take the consequences all the way to the SCOTUS. What he did was plain granstanding, nothing more.
It reminds me of something I heard: One guy asked a PETA member why were they pouring red paint on people wearing fur. The PETA member said that it was to protest the use of animals for clothing, that it was immoral and it should be stopped. The guy was unimpressed and told so the PETA member. The PETA guy asked what should he do to impress him and he responded: Pouring red paint on an old lady wearing a fur coat is nothing. You wanna impress me? Pour the red paint on a Hell Angel's colors and convince him that leather is immoral."
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
When a cop says it, it's pathetic.
The cop is responsible for his own behavior, PERIOD.
If he acts in an unprofessional, tortious or criminal manner, that's HIS fault and neither he nor you can blame it on anyone else.
Nice Joe, very, very nice!
Deanimator I knew you would come down on the right side of this one!!
Proofread before you post!!! A reminder to me.
Just to clear up my take on LEO's as well. I know that there are "good cops." I am related to some of them. I am friends with several others. So like Joe, for anyone who's accusing me of "cop-bashing," I'm not bashing "cops," here - I'm bashing punks with badges who break the laws they claim to enforce, and endanger the safety of their brothers and sisters in blue by needlessly antagonizing even decent folks. (sorry for stealing your words Joe but you hit the nail on the head with it)
And to quickly comment without hijacking a thread, specifically in response to HotGuns: Yes, I have had "encounters" with my local PD. My encounters have been mixed at best. The couple of "good" ones where they have offered advice and a helping hand are far outweighed by the the horrible ones where I have been berated and called names (with an audience) for no reason or absolutely nothing was done about the laws that were being broken.
Recent example: May 10th 2009; I was reporting some punk kids destroying private property(not mine), one of them (17yrs old) decided that the proper thing to do was to threaten to kill me, kill my dog, poison my well water, and detail how he would rape my girlfriend violently (he described this in detail with the other kids listening ooh-ing and ahhh-ing at the vulgarity), and then burn my house down. This was heard by 7 neighbors. Read: SEVEN WITNESSES. When the officer responded he told them to go home, and then told me that my problem was that i "dont get along with anyone because [youre] an [Edited] and proceeded to get in his car and drive away. I'm guessing that he is the one with that problem but that is another story.
Again, I dont want to hijack this thread and there is far more history (a years worth) behind things with the kid that threatened me and a couple other punks in the neighborhood.
My point I suppose is that I am trying to be a non confrontational, polite, and law abiding citizen, and yet that is the response I get. Doobie was doing the same as far as I can see. He was a law abiding citizen.
It just seems to me that a lot of people on this forum are either LEO (who for all I know are great all around) or side/submit with LE blindly. Believe me when I tell you I have a great respect for (most of) what police officers do on a daily basis, and I understand the job. You always hear about the "bad" cops on the internet. No one video tapes a "good cop" and puts it on youtube ... I think we all need to understand that.
I give respect until I am disrespected regardless of who the person is or what profession they happened to choose in life.
Last edited by Captain Crunch; June 9th, 2009 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Language workaround.
Because the only portrayal many folks have of those who carry guns is cops and bad guys. If they don't ever see their friendly neighbor carrying a gun, they don't realize who actually carries. If, on the other hand, they've seen their dentist in the grocery store, and their mechanic coaching kids' soccer, and the little old lady down the street watering her rose bushes, and all those fine, upstanding individuals were armed, are they going to believe the Brady Bunch when they say that only rednecks and criminals carry guns?
To convert your story to match the present situation, I suppose you would be "impressed" if he started shooting into the air and screaming incoherently? That's all I can imagine you mean from your use of that story...
Wonder how many on this forum would do this and if we ALL did, how would it look towards our cause, rather its legal or not.
Prepare for the worst and hope it never happens