MARYLAND Transit Authority Police Harass Open Carrier in VIRGINIA

This is a discussion on MARYLAND Transit Authority Police Harass Open Carrier in VIRGINIA within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by langenc Should have got his badge number and turn him into his captain.. His last comment to you was very near a ...

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Thread: MARYLAND Transit Authority Police Harass Open Carrier in VIRGINIA

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Mardet65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by langenc View Post
    Should have got his badge number and turn him into his captain..
    His last comment to you was very near a threat and I would think a call to his Department head would be in order.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    There was a paddle wheel three deck boat on the Virginia side of the Potomac river in the 60s which was actually in Maryland because it was located out past the low tide mark. It was a gambling boat and gambling is illegal in Virginia. Just goes to show that sometimes you cannot tell where the state line is.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Hey guys, the point is what he believed to be Virginia may not in fact have been Virginia. And when he is brought before a judge in the District Court of Maryland and tells the judge he believed he was in Virginia, the judge is not going to be impressed.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    So, I had some time to kill and went to the beach at the Potomac River where the Route 301 Nice Bridge crosses the river.
    Everywhere that I can think of, the border between two places is marked in the middle of the river. For example, the Snake River between Idaho, Oregon and Washington. Not so, between VA/MD in the Potomac.

    See below. Looks like this is the section of river in Virginia that's being described, just north of the US Naval Surface Weapons Center complex. In that section of river, the border of Maryland extends all the way onto Virginia's side of the river. Nice little glitch, which allows Maryland to claim legal authority for folks standing on the Virginia side. For folks attempting to keep the hell away from MD, this looks like a pothole that is ripe for abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    And when he is brought before a judge in the District Court of Maryland and tells the judge he believed he was in Virginia, the judge is not going to be impressed.
    Yeah, well. A MD judge wouldn't be, in the land where anyone caught with a gun who isn't on the Who's Who list is deemed a felon.
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by langenc View Post
    Should have got his badge number and turn him into his captain..
    Considering this guy was MTA and an agent of the People's Republik of Maryland, his Captain would have probably given him a commendation for his "heroic act".

    gag

    Seriously though, I hate hearing about this stuff. But I do have to commend the deputy for setting MTA dork straight. It's good to hear the deputy did it in front of him, and didn't just pull MTA aside and explained the law to him to save face in front of Mr. Sandlin.

    But sad part is that this happens in Va with our own LEO's more then you think.

  7. #21
    Member Array DarylW's Avatar
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    Unless for some reason they have authority in both states, the MTA guy had absolutely nothing to go on. It's be one citizen holding another at gun-point, and he could be arrested for it.

    And for him to have authority in both states, I'd think they'd have to study the law and be certified in both states. Lots of legal issues when LEO's try to enforce the law in the wrong state.

    Federal LEO's have nationwide authority, but they only enforce federal laws. They sometimes assist other law enforcement agencies, but generally don't get involved in local issues.

    As far as accusing him of lying? Who cares? He wasn't a legal officer in a state outside his own, so tell him to go pound sand.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array kellyII's Avatar
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    well im sure happy that here in the state of TN, I know when I cross into another state, bc there is a huge sign that let me know

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellyII View Post
    well im sure happy that here in the state of TN, I know when I cross into another state, bc there is a huge sign that let me know
    May be true along the roads. However, I've hiked and maintained the AT in the Great Smoky Mountains, crossing the TN/NC line many times in the process w/o ever seeing a sign. As carry rules are dependent of the rules of the State you are in....

    How about the Mississippi to the west. What are the rules on boats?

    The lack of signs along the GW Parkway ( See: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-virginia.html ) will be a real problem, once the NPS carry comes into effect.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array kellyII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    May be true along the roads. However, I've hiked and maintained the AT in the Great Smoky Mountains, crossing the TN/NC line many times in the process w/o ever seeing a sign. As carry rules are dependent of the rules of the State you are in....

    How about the Mississippi to the west. What are the rules on boats?
    .
    well youre right about that, I guess im mainly happy that I dont have to worry with high tides and low tides, matters along that sort...

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    It's well established -- the high water mark on the Virginia shore, as MCP1810 said.
    Actually it's not well established which is why they keep arguing it...and is important to do so until it IS well established.

    It doesn't get more recent than this...
    Bold added by me... The initial/first paragraph starting with "Fourth" was taken by Kennedy from the 1877 Arbitration agreement between VA and MD. Seems to me from reading this minority dissenting opinion that the Supreme Court is in agreement at least to Virginia having FULL DOMINION up to the low water line, just not anything other than riparian rights(ie limited use under MD's good graces with MD retaining full ownership) past that point.

    VIRGINIA V. MARYLAND
    Snippet from
    Kennedy, J., dissenting

    SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

    No. 129 Orig.
    COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA, PLAINTIFF v. STATE OF MARYLAND
    ON BILL OF COMPLAINT

    [December 9, 2003]

    Justice Kennedy, with whom Justice Stevens joins, dissenting.
    “Fourth. Virginia is entitled not only to full dominion over the soil to low-water mark on the south shore of the Potomac, but has a right to such use of the river beyond the line of low-water mark as may be necessary to the full enjoyment of her riparian ownership, without impeding the navigation or otherwise interfering with the proper use of it by Maryland, agreeably to the compact of seventeen hundred and eighty-five.” Act of Mar. 3, 1879, ch. 196, 20 Stat. 482 (internal quotation marks omitted).

    The majority suggests this language gives Virginia sovereign rights to the River because it uses the words “Virginia” and “full dominion.” See ante, at 14 (“The arbitrators did not differentiate between Virginia’s dominion over the soil and her right to construct improvements beyond low-water mark”). That reading cannot be right for two reasons. First, the evident design of Paragraph Fourth is to acknowledge a Virginia access right parallel to that of its own citizens who were riparian landowners. Paragraph Fourth sets out two recitations, and they are in contradistinction. Virginia is granted “full dominion” up to the low water line. This is unlimited. What comes next is not. As to the rights beyond this full dominion, that is to say beyond the low water line, Virginia has only the rights of a riparian owner. If the arbitrators meant to set the two rights in parallel, as Virginia argues, they would not have used the word “but” to distinguish them. Further, the phrase “a right to such use” is limited by the phrase “riparian ownership.” This is far different from saying Virginia has full dominion “up to the low water line, and with respect to” any improvements it makes appurtenant to its shore.
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  12. #26
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    If you are talking about building a dock, or the like, you are right.

    However, as far as whose laws control things like carry, your quote acknowledges that Virginia has full dominion over the soil to low-water mark on the south shore of the Potomac.

    And yes, I misspoke when I said the high water mark earlier.

    OTOH, I'll stick with the high water mark in practice (if I ever get back up north/down east that way) -- as it would be easer to establish, i.e., my feet weren't wet, so I couldn't have gotten past the high water mark to get to the low water mark .

    Thanks for the citation, BTY. I've bookmarked it.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    If you are talking about building a dock, or the like, you are right.

    However, as far as whose laws control things like carry, your quote acknowledges that Virginia has full dominion over the soil to low-water mark on the south shore of the Potomac.

    And yes, I misspoke when I said the high water mark earlier.

    OTOH, I'll stick with the high water mark in practice (if I ever get back up north/down east that way) -- as it would be easer to establish, i.e., my feet weren't wet, so I couldn't have gotten past the high water mark to get to the low water mark .

    Thanks for the citation, BTY. I've bookmarked it.
    Oh definitely agreed. The high water mark is safer as we all know everyone(including LE) doesn't know everything, and I don't have the funds to pay my lawyer after being the test case
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    OK, for the sake of argument I will go with the low water mark for this discussion. What was the tide state at the time of the incident? Were his shoes wet? We don't know the answers to these questions.
    If it was low tide, and if he dipped one toe into the river, he was illegally carrying a handgun in the state of Maryland where the MTA officer has full police powers. His apprehension of the suspect he witnessed violating Maryland law on the Virginia shore would be covered under fresh pursuit. The question would then be does the accused fight extradition?

    We can argue it back and forth endlessly but since none of us were there, no one can say for sure.

    ETA: I am not saying the MTA officer is not a pecker head, just that he might have been able to find legal justification for his actions.
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