For Pa... How come i don't see more people open carry...

For Pa... How come i don't see more people open carry...

This is a discussion on For Pa... How come i don't see more people open carry... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I live in Erie, Pa Ever since i found this website, i always wanted to open carry my sig... the problem is, i never see ...

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Thread: For Pa... How come i don't see more people open carry...

  1. #1
    Member Array Darkincin's Avatar
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    For Pa... How come i don't see more people open carry...

    I live in Erie, Pa

    Ever since i found this website, i always wanted to open carry my sig... the problem is, i never see anyone open carry...

    Like i'm mostly afraid of someone freaking out on me, calling the cops, and what not. This is way i probably won't open carry, and just conceal carry...

    Any tips to overcome the nervously and open carry?


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    if you want to do it, just do it.

    i suggest a retention holster, some training, and to familiarize yourself with any laws pertaining to the carry and transport of guns. it's easier than it sounds; there are only one set of them, pertaining to the whole state.

    if possible, try finding someone local to you who's willing to open carry with you.

  3. #3
    Member Array NoNameMan's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum Darkincin!

    I've never seen anyone open carrying (besides myself on occasion) either. I live a few hours south of you. I hear of OC happening, however.

    I worried about the same things you mentioned. I still do sometimes. Just be familiar with the law, and your rights, and get out there. I will too, when it warms up.

    You may concider checking out Pennsylvania Open Carry and PAFOA if you haven't already. There are awesome Pennsylvania gun rights fliers for download free at the PA OC website.
    "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

  4. #4
    Member Array SteveinNEPA's Avatar
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    Another from PA here, Tobyhanna (Monroe county). Like NoNameMan said, check out the sites he mentioned and click on the link in my signature line, its the actual LAW regarding open carry. I open carry here when weather allows and if Im inside for a while. As for not seeing many other OC, it depends on your area. Welcome to the forum by the way!
    ~Steve
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    http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkb...pdate_2009.pdf

  5. #5
    Ex Member Array Sunday's Avatar
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    Welcome Darkincin! I love this forum, the people here are great! As a clown I generally do not socialize but enjoy the everyday experiences I read on this forum.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    i suggest you join Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association and find someone to OC with you your first few times..... im in PA right now(norristown) and have been OCing every day and even OCing in Phily to Pats steaks and Fridays and on South street Sat night....
    a thread of mine no i didnt OC in a National Park just the Holster :P
    Open Carry Independence Hall+ Liberty Bell
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  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    You don't see a lot of OC because many are worried about being harassed if they carry openly. Make sure to check all your ordinances, and then if you want to OC then do so. Make sure you are polite, respectful, and helpful when you are armed; being so will make you a good ambassador for firearms owners.

    Here in AZ I see the occasional OC, and even OC on occasion myself to keep the populace seeing firearms. The challenge is that most people are so oblivious that they never even see it in plain sight!
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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  8. #8
    Member Array yale's Avatar
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    This is probably why some people have nicknamed Open Carriers "Unicorns". Seeing one of us is about as rare as seeing a unicorn.

  9. #9
    Member Array spooter66's Avatar
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    Hi Darkincin,

    Welcome to the forum!

    I live an hour south of you in Franklin and occasionally OC in my neck of the woods and I've OC'd in Erie once or twice. We are around and growing in numbers.

    As Rmodel65 mentioned take a look at the PAFOA website, a lot of good info on OC there. A few of us that posted to this thread (me, JahWarrior, RModel, steveinNEPA) also go by the same user names on that forum so you already have friends waiting for you over there.

    If you look in the "Events" sub-forum at PAFOA in the General section you will see local get togethers posted. Go to one of the dinners and meet some of the locals, it's a good way to take that first plunge into OC and make new friends.

    Also take a look at the PA gun rights flyer here: Your Pennsylvania Gun Rights ~Handy flyer to carry with you.

    I recommend you print a couple out and carry them with you if you decide to OC.

    Good Luck and don't hesitate to PM me on either forum if you have any questions.
    "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill


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    Welcome...

    from Central Florida!

    Stay armed...stay concealed...stay safe!

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    Member Array inman's Avatar
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    M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 45
    Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    IX. UNIFORM FIREARMS ACT UPDATE:
    “OPEN CARRY”
    Question #1 - What is “open carry”?
    Answer #1 - Open carry can be defined
    as carrying a legal firearm, loaded or
    unloaded, on your person unconcealed,
    with or without a valid and lawfully
    issued license to carry a firearm.
    Question #2 - Is “open carry” legal in
    Pennsylvania?
    Answer #2 – Yes, but with several
    exceptions: The Pennsylvania Uniform
    Firearms Act is silent on the specific issue of
    open carry. §6106 only prohibits carrying a
    firearm in a vehicle or concealed on or about one’s person, except in the person’s
    place of abode or fixed place of business, without a license and when no exemption
    applies.
    Carrying a firearm unconcealed on one’s person does not violate §6106. However,
    a person who is engaging in “open carry” of a firearm violates §6106 when that
    person enters a vehicle with the gun in his possession and the person does not
    possess a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm and is not exempt
    from licensing. Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm
    possession is generally restricted (i.e. courts, schools, state parks or where
    restricted federally).
    The exceptions to open carry are as follows:
    There is a restriction on open carry during a declared state of emergency. In this
    situation the person must be actively engaging in a defense of that person’s life or
    property from peril or threat and possesses a valid and lawfully issued license to
    carry a firearm or is exempt from licensing. (§6107).
    There is a restriction on open carry in a City of the First Class (Philadelphia).
    (§6108).
    PENNSYLVANIA CRIMES CODE - SELECTED SECTIONS
    §6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a
    firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or
    about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business,
    without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a
    felony of the third degree.
    Show Slide 35
    Show Slide 36
    Instructor Note:
    There is a hyperlink to
    the District of
    Columbia et al. v.
    Heller, from
    Washington, D.C. in
    the event that you get
    questions from the
    class on this recent
    U.S. Supreme court
    case.
    Instructor Note:
    Philadelphia is the only
    City of the First Class
    in Pennsylvania.
    Instructor Note:
    General firearms
    restrictions under §912
    and §913 will be
    covered later in this
    lesson plan.
    M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 46
    Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license
    under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who
    carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of
    abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license
    and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor
    of the first degree.
    LICENSING EXEMPTIONS UNDER §6106
    (1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies,
    policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other lawenforcement
    officers.
    (2) Members of the army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard of
    the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
    (3) The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized
    to purchase or receive such firearms from the United States or from this
    Commonwealth.
    (4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such
    persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target
    practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target
    practice, the firearm is not loaded.
    (5) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a
    concealed firearm.
    (6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks,
    or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and
    other property in the discharge of such duties.
    (7) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or
    dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in
    his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of
    such business.
    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a
    secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to
    a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in
    moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a
    vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property
    under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place
    of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms
    or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish
    firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. §6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the
    relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer’s place of business for
    relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for
    consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the
    relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. §
    6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon
    return of the relinquished firearm.
    Instructor Note:
    "LOADED." A firearm is
    loaded if the firing
    chamber, the nondetachable
    magazine or in the case of a
    revolver, any of the
    chambers of the cylinder
    contain ammunition capable
    of being fired. In the case of
    a firearm which utilizes a
    detachable magazine, the
    term shall mean a magazine
    suitable for use in said
    firearm which magazine
    contains such ammunition
    and has been inserted in the
    firearm or is in the same
    container or, where the
    container has multiple
    compartments, the same
    compartment thereof as the
    firearm.
    Slide 37
    Instructor Note: Because of the
    specific language used in §6106,
    carrying a firearm concealed or
    in a vehicle requires a license or
    an exemption from licensing,
    except in a person’s home or
    fixed place of business. In the
    absence of an express prohibition
    in §6106, the law presumes that
    unconcealed or open carry is
    lawful except to the degree
    regulated by §6107 and §6108.
    M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 47
    Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    (9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this
    Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or
    fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or
    fish or returning from such places.
    (10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs
    during the regular training season.
    (11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle which, person
    possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been
    issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
    (12) A person who has a lawfully issued license to carry a firearm
    pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses) and that said license expired
    within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise
    eligible for renewal of the license.
    (13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under
    this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the
    person’s name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm
    for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse
    or parent owning the firearm.
    (14) A person lawfully engaged in the interstate transportation of a
    firearm as defined under 18 U.S.C § 921(a)(3) (relating to definitions) in
    compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 926A (relating to interstate transportation of
    firearms).
    (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or
    permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state,
    regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the
    Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:
    (i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals
    licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
    (ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws
    of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.
    §6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.
    No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public
    streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
    (1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
    (2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this
    title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
    Show Slide 38
    M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 48
    Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    Question #3- What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in
    open carry?
    Answer #3- In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other
    than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in
    violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a
    restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a
    minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court
    facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying
    during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific
    reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person
    engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would
    not be legally justified.
    § 912. Possession of weapon on school property.
    (a) DEFINITION.-Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907
    (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section
    shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool,
    nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement
    capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
    (b) OFFENSE DEFINED.-A person commits a misdemeanor of the first
    degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in
    any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or
    secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or
    secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any
    elementary or secondary parochial school.
    (c) DEFENSE.-It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in
    conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for
    other lawful purpose.
    § 913. Possession of firearm or other dangerous weapon in court facility.
    (a) OFFENSE DEFINED.-A person commits an offense if he: (1) knowingly
    possesses a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a court facility or knowingly
    causes a firearm or other dangerous weapon to be present in a court facility; or
    (2) knowingly possesses a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a court facility
    with the intent that the firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the
    commission of a crime or knowingly causes a firearm or other dangerous weapon
    to be present in a court facility with the intent that the firearm or other dangerous
    weapon be used in the commission of a crime.
    (b) GRADING.-
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (3), an offense under subsection (a)
    (1) is a misdemeanor of the third degree.
    Instructor Note:
    See hyperlinks to:
    § 912 and § 913.
    Municipal Police Officer's Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    (2) An offense under subsection (a)(2) is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    (3) An offense under subsection (a)(1) is a summary offense if the person was
    carrying a firearm under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without
    a license) or 6109 (relating to licenses) and failed to check the firearm tinder
    subsection (e) prior to entering the court facility.
    (c) EXCEPTIONS. - Subsection (a) shall not apply to:
    (1) The lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent or employee of the
    United States, the Commonwealth or a political subdivision who is authorized by law
    to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation or prosecution of any
    violation of law.
    (2) The lawful performance of official duties by a court official.
    (3) The carrying of rifles and shotguns by instructors and participants in a course of
    instruction provided by the Pennsylvania Game Commission under 34 Pa.C.S.  2704
    (relating to eligibility for license).
    (4) Associations of veteran soldiers and their auxiliaries or members of organized
    armed forces of the United States or the Commonwealth,including reserve
    components, when engaged in the performance of ceremonial duties with county
    approval.
    (5) The carrying of a dangerous weapon or firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper
    by an attorney who seeks to employ the dangerous weapon or firearm as an exhibit or
    as a demonstration and who possesses written authorization from the court to bring
    the dangerous weapon or firearm into the court facility.
    (d) POSTING OF NOTICE.-Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (e) shall
    be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each courthouse or other building
    containing a court facility and each court facility, and no person shall be convicted of
    an offense under subsection (a)(1) with respect to a court facility if the notice was not
    so posted at each public entrance to the courthouse or other building containing a
    court facility and at the court facility unless the person had actual notice of the
    provisions of subsection (a).
    (e) FACILITIES FOR CHECKING FIREARMS OR OTHER DANGEROUS
    WEAPONS. - Each county shall make available at or within the building
    containing a court facility by July 1,2002, lockers or similar facilities at no
    charge or cost for the temporary checking of firearms by persons carrying
    firearms under section 6106(b) or 6109 or for the checking of other dangerous
    weapons that are not otherwise prohibited by law. Any individual checking a
    firearm, dangerous weapon or an item deemed to be a dangerous weapon at a
    court facility must be issued a receipt. Notice of the location of the facility shall
    be posted as required under subsection (d).
    M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 49
    M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 50
    Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    (f) DEFINITIONS.-As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall
    have the meanings given to them in this subsection:
    "COURT FACILITY." The courtroom of a court of record; a courtroom of a
    community court; the courtroom of a magisterial district judge; a courtroom of the
    Philadelphia Municipal Court; a courtroom of the Pittsburgh Magistrates Court; a
    courtroom of the Traffic Court of Philadelphia; judge's chambers; witness rooms;
    jury deliberation rooms; attorney conference rooms; prisoner holding cells; offices
    of court clerks, the district attorney, the sheriff and probation and parole officers;
    and any adjoining corridors.
    "DANGEROUS WEAPON." A bomb, grenade, blackjack, sandbag, metal
    knuckles, dagger, knife (the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by
    switch, push-button, spring mechanism or otherwise) or other implement for the
    infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.
    "FIREARM." Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to
    expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or
    escape of gas. The term does not include any device designed or used exclusively
    for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition.
    Act 1995-66 (S.B. 282), § 2, approved Nov. 22, 1995; Act 1995 Special Session-
    17 (H.B. 110), § 1, approved June 13, 1995, eff. in 120 days; Act 1999-59 (S.B.
    167), § 1, approved Dec. 15, 1999, eff. in 60 days; Act 2004-207 (S.B. 904), § 2,
    approved Nov. 30, 2004, eff. in 60 days.
    If an officer can develop reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot, by a
    person engaged in open carry, then the temporary seizure of the person and
    confiscation of the firearm would be justified, because the person is known to be
    armed and dangerous based on the suspected criminal activity and visible
    possession of a firearm. A further frisk would also be warranted to ensure the
    person was not in possession of any other weapons. If the officer’s investigatory
    detention leads to probable cause, then the person may be placed under arrest for
    the crime that has been committed. However, if the officer’s suspicion is allayed
    then any seized firearms must be returned to the citizen and the citizen must be
    released from the investigatory detention. A firearm may be seized from a person
    who the officer knows to be prohibited from possessing a firearm under State or
    Federal law.
    Officers should be aware that citizens may become alarmed or concerned when
    they witness persons engaged in open carry. This may be due in part to individual
    sensibilities regarding firearms and the fact that persons engaged in open carry are
    infrequently encountered in Pennsylvania. However, a citizen’s alarm or concern
    does not alone negatively impact the rights of a person engaging in the lawful open
    carrying of a firearm. Officers receiving citizen reports of a “man with a gun”
    would be prudent to respond to determine the nature of the report. However, the
    rights of any person engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm must be
    carefully considered when interacting with such person. Persons engaged in the
    lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or
    property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may they
    Show Slide 39
    M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 51
    Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    be required to produce identification or other documents. A person who is
    engaging in open carry in Philadelphia or in an area of declared emergency may be
    required to produce a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm or
    establish an exemption. Of course, a person engaged in the open carrying of a
    firearm may engage in violations of other laws or handle the firearm in an
    inappropriate manner which could constitute offenses such as: disorderly conduct,
    reckless endangerment, simple assault by physical menace, etc. However, merely
    engaging in the open carrying of a firearm would not necessarily constitute such an
    offense.
    An officer who observes a person who is engaged in the open carrying of a
    firearm in the vicinity of a public event attended by the President or other persons
    under the protection of the Secret Service must consider whether any violation of
    Pennsylvania law is occurring, If there is not a clear violation of the law, it would
    be prudent to bring the presence of this person to the attention of the Secret Service
    who is empowered under various federal statutes to regulate the possession of
    firearms in the vicinity of persons under Secret Service protection.
    X. Course Summary
    Course Summary and testing
    A. Conduct a Review Session
    B. Allow time for student questions
    C. Administer test in accordance with MPOETC MIST testing procedures.
    testing shall be conducted outside the three instructional hours established
    for this course.
    Thank the course participants for attending and for their
    attention during this MPOETC program.
    Slide 40 (END)
    Instructor Note:
    When conducting a
    review, instructors
    are expected to teach
    to the instructional
    objectives, conduct a
    brief review of the
    major topic areas and
    re-emphasize the
    main ideas of the
    course.
    I suggest that if you can find in your inner self the will to inflict violence on someone who is trying to victimize you, and can back up that iron will with all the force that you can muster, you will most likely be successful.

  12. #12
    Member Array Fastball's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum! A lot of great advice above!!

    Take the advice/resources of those here and do it smart.

    Stay safe!
    Last edited by Fastball; December 17th, 2009 at 12:49 AM. Reason: TMI
    You never see a motorcycle parked ouside a psychiatrist's office!

  13. #13
    kpw
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    VIP Member Array kpw's Avatar
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    Welcome from another Erie native. I'd reccomend joining PAFOA as well. There are a few OCers around here but not many. I think I've seen 2 in the last year or so and that wasn't in the city. I OC on occasion but generally not around large crowds or congested areas. Others have given you some good advice and links to check out.
    "In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." -
    -- Marcus Tullius Cicero

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    I've only seen someone one time open carry, and that was a guy standing next to his car at a gas station with a shoulder rig. I think he just left off his jacket and was out to stretch his legs for a second.

    Most people don't OC because it is a MAJOR PITA for SOOOOO many reasons. Oh, but your draw might be faster if you think losing the element of surprise is a sound trade-off.

    It sure is a good way to meet your local police officers it seems from reading the threads on the subject.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    While many want to open carry, even if it is lawful and their right to do so, needless to say, an openly carried revolver or pistol will attract attention very quickly from the public or Law Enforcement. For some, it just scares the daylights out of them because they don't understand the reasoning behind carrying a firearm in the first place.

    My state, WV, is an open carry state, yet on the Attorney General's website, it does mention the openly carried firearm will get attention. Not bashing Open Carry, but the drawbacks of it are greater than any benefit it would bring.

    With that, I choose not to open carry unless it is absolutely necessary to do so.
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

    The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green

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