Security Guard tries to take pistol from OC'er.

This is a discussion on Security Guard tries to take pistol from OC'er. within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; YO All right CHUCK NORRIS...

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Thread: Security Guard tries to take pistol from OC'er.

  1. #136
    Member Array REDTAIL's Avatar
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    YO All right CHUCK NORRIS

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  3. #137
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GM View Post
    This is something that has been bugging me for a long time. What should the consequences be if someone tries to take my firearm while I am carrying (not matter if I OC or CC) and then I fire it and hurt that person? To what degree are we allowed to protect our carry firearm if someone tries to take/steal it from us? Should it be considered self-defense? How could I possible know if that person is not trying to take my firearm from me to hurt me or other people? Any ideas?
    You aren't defending yourself against someone stealing your gun...as much as you are defending your life against someone (you believe) who wants to kills you....it is self-defense (IMO). If a BG wants to take your gun from you, it is logical to believe the BG is going to hurt someone else if he/she gets it away from you.

    Either way, I wouldn't contemplate it too hard....someone attacks you, you can defend yourself.
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  4. #138
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    would it be listed if both parties declined to press charges because there wasnt a crime?? maybe its was the sheriff office???
    Oh yeah, if anyone ever had an opportunity to press charges there would have to be a crime. If there is no crime, there is nothing to charge anyone with, thus no option to press charges or not press charges.
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  5. #139
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    As to the question of whether the OP on GPDO would have been justified in using deadly force against the security guard- it would depend first and foremost on Georgai law, to state the obvious.

    Consider this, when I was a cop, a gun-grab attempt was considered assault with a deadly weapon and use of deadly force was authorized, but not required, depending on the circumstances. If you were able to stop the gun-grab and restrain the assailant, deadly force would not have been necessary. If the assailant continued to fight for your gun, you would be authorized to shoot at the first opportunity.

    Again, this comes back to using the lowest level of force necessary to stop the threat. It is not only a legal issue, but a moral issue. Don't ever kill anyone you don't have to. Having blood on your hands, your head and your heart is a heavy burden to bear. There are a few of us on here who know that all the big talk of the self-defense ninjas falls by the wayside when you kill someone. Justified or not, killing is not entertaining and all your bravado and moral clarity won't necessarily help you sleep any better at night.

    I think the OP handled the situation magnificently. He used decisive and crushing force to stop the attack, but did not continue beyond what was necessary to stop the threat.

    As to all this conjecture about charges and police records, let me just say that not every call goes in the blotters, especially when there are on-going investigations and civil actions involved. I speak from experience. FOIA is not always a free-ticket for prying eyes and inquiring minds. Some things are just none of our damn business. Follow the story on GPDO, learn what you can from it, and maybe someday when the dust settles, all the little gossip-hounds will have their sensitive noses sated.

    Speculation is a cross-eyed, buck-toothed cousin to assumptions. And we know what happens when you assume. The only thing worse than an a**, is an inbred a**.

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  6. #140
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    You aren't defending yourself against someone stealing your gun...as much as you are defending your life against someone (you believe) who wants to kills you....it is self-defense (IMO). If a BG wants to take your gun from you, it is logical to believe the BG is going to hurt someone else if he/she gets it away from you.

    Either way, I wouldn't contemplate it too hard....someone attacks you, you can defend yourself.
    Precisely. If somebody tries to snatch a loaded gun from me, my first thought isn't that he plans to go deer hunting with it. There's no INNOCENT explanation for somebody doing it. Imputing an innocent motive to such an action has potentially fatal consequences for you.

    What would a cop do if that same guard tried to snatch HIS gun? Assuming that the original subject's gun was being lawfully open carried, not in violation of posted business policy, the guard would have no more justification for snatching it than he would to snatch the cop's.

  7. #141
    Member Array cwaturner's Avatar
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    All I can say is WOW!

  8. #142
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    So has anyone found ANY 3rd party evidence that verifies the incident?

  9. #143
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    Consider this, when I was a cop, a gun-grab attempt was considered assault with a deadly weapon and use of deadly force was authorized, but not required, depending on the circumstances. If you were able to stop the gun-grab and restrain the assailant, deadly force would not have been necessary. If the assailant continued to fight for your gun, you would be authorized to shoot at the first opportunity.
    When you were a cop and even today, most states have laws making it a criminal offense to disarm or attempt to disarm a police officer.

    One of the things overlooked here is that Mathar1 was on PRIVATE PROPERTY and the individual he claims to have had an incident with was an authorized agent of the property owner.

    Now that does not mean the security guard could attempt to disarm Mathar1 just because he felt like it. I don't know why the security guard to the steps he did since we do not have his or an unbiased third parties side of the story. And I never assume that one side of a story is sufficient to draw a definitive conclusion as to what did or did not happen.

    I can draw some conclusions from the one side of the story that has been told based on what is said and how. And those conclusions based on Mathar1's own posts tell me that he is not telling the truth.

    Security guard today just tried to physically dis-arm me. Grabbed my right arm with his left hand and attempted to grab my pistol grip with his right. Elbow to the face and a back step rear kick/shin scrape to his right knee/shin...turned and hit him with a full body roundhouse punch. Knocked his a$$ out cold. Because the cops were called I can't give full details until everything is settled but it was at a big box store.

    I knew he was there but he never said a word just walked right up and tried it.
    To any trained and experienced police officer who did not sleep through interviews and interrogations training the above statement in Mathar1's own words will quickly be pegged as an untruthful statement.

    As to all this conjecture about charges and police records, let me just say that not every call goes in the blotters
    Sorry but yes they do. ANY call for service which LEO's respond to is assigned a complaint number. And virtually all depts have a "complaint card" system which is available to the general public and the media for reading. This is not the "police report", it is simply a short piece which documents that the Dept. received a call for service, what time it was, the location of the event, the time of the officers arrival, What the nature of the complaint was, Who the complaining party was, who the parties involved were and what actions the officers took. it does not go into great detail about the incident itself and if the call results in a in depth investigation then the short report will end with. "Under Investigation"

    FOIA is not always a free-ticket for prying eyes and inquiring minds. Some things are just none of our damn business. Follow the story on GPDO, learn what you can from it, and maybe someday when the dust settles, all the little gossip-hounds will have their sensitive noses sated.
    This is true of ongoing investigations and investigation initiated by the Dept. not resulting from a call for service. In short the "Complete" investigation will not be available to anyone prior to the conclusion of the investigation.


    Speculation is a cross-eyed, buck-toothed cousin to assumptions. And we know what happens when you assume.
    Like assuming that Mathar1 is relating his story in a truthful manner ?

  10. #144
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    So, AlphaMale-
    Welcome to the forum. You certainly chose a weighty forum to introduce yourself, skipping over the new member introductory forum, and with no sort of prior posts to establish your legitimacy or frame of reference for your point of view. It would be helpful if you indicate something of your background with firearms, law enforcement, military, lawyer, etc. so we can know where you're coming from.

    A couple replies to some of your assertions:
    -You make a good point for the fact that the guard was acting as an agent of a private property owner, but overlook the fact that there are a good number of restrictions on their actions when acting as such. Business owner's have a good amount of authority over the way they conduct business, but the law still comes into play. Depending on Georgia statutes, I doubt even the property owner himself could have been held faultless for attempting a gun-grab on a legally carrying customer. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

    -I'm glad that you're an expert at interrogation and deciphering folks' forum postings for truthfulness and lies. Because apparently a lot of folks on this forum (and several others) are idiots for generally taking the word of someone personally known to them and a number of senior personnel on another established local forum. Mathar may or may not be telling the truth, embellishing, whatever the case may be. But a good number of reputable folks on GPDO seem to find him trustworthy. You, on the other hand sort of came out of nowhere to insinuate he's a liar. I would love to hear that you are a cop in the area where this happened and thus know it's all a sham, so we can close this thread. I'm really not kidding.

    On the other hand, I've seen all kinds of ridiculous and unbelievable crap go down when dealing with retail security officers and the sort of "bodyguard boss" Mathar1 purports to work for. Some are just nuts- mall ninjas. Others are fairly well connected with LE Agencies, the DA's office, etc. Who knows what sort of connections the characters in this story have. Doesn't really matter to me. It's an interesting situation, and if factual, it could be educational to see how it plays out.
    And seriously- the moment you think you're an expert at interrogation and interviewing is the moment you are not. I've heard completely unbelievable stories that turned out to be true. I've heard completely believable stories that turned out to be untrue. Some completely honest folks just suck at telling the truth, and some very dishonest folks tell vary articulate lies. There does seem to be a bit of inverted Gecko45 going on with this story, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    -Calls don't always make the blotters. Say what you will about written SOPs, laws, policies, etc. I've lived in the real world as a big-city cop (and been involved in military incident investigations as well). Inconvenient things go missing all the time. Dispatchers fail in their duties, shift Sgts make judgment calls, administrators look the other way, newspaper editors are human, etc., etc.. This may or may not be the case. Until anyone knows what department took the call, it would be hard to say. Blotter reports can be intentionally or unintentionally vague as well, so it could be hard to identify even if it were reported for the public. The fact that the report was assigned a number doesn't mean that the report description would include anything that would make it easy to link to this incident, should it be published in a newspaper, or obtained via a FOIA request.

    -Engaging in discussions on any internet forum requires a certain combination of skepticism and blind trust. Typically after observing a member's posts for a period of time, one can discern whether they're legitimate, a mall ninja, or any other sort of bloviating blowhard. So, of course, certain assumptions are made. What really lights people up though is when the balance of skepticism and trust is blown far off one end of the scale without any articulable justification. We get folks who post every scary email chain-letter despite it being debunked on snopes months ago. Then we get folks who refuse to acknowledge that the sky is blue. Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify." Initially, I trust this guy, but would love to see some hard evidence outside of internet forums.

    For the record, I don't personally know anyone on GPDO or the OP. For me, this discussion is about addressing the hypothetical case presented in light of my experiences in law enforcement and the military. Folks speculating as to the truthfulness of the issue may be wasting their time. It doesn't matter to me whether it was real or hypothetical (as we often present "what if" scenarios on this forum for the sake of discussion and mental exercise). Lessons can be learned all around.

    Again, welcome to DC. Maybe you can introduce yourself and give us something less subjective for why you are so suspicious of Mathar1. We'd love to know more.

    Semper Fi
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    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
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  11. #145
    Member Array AlphaMale's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum. You certainly chose a weighty forum to introduce yourself, skipping over the new member introductory forum, and with no sort of prior posts to establish your legitimacy or frame of reference for your point of view. It would be helpful if you indicate something of your background with firearms, law enforcement, military, lawyer, etc. so we can know where you're coming from.
    Thanks for the welcome, as for me, I am a retired career LEO. Former Sgt. and firearms instructor. I was and am certified to teach in the police academy on a variety of subjects.

    A couple replies to some of your assertions:
    -You make a good point for the fact that the guard was acting as an agent of a private property owner, but overlook the fact that there are a good number of restrictions on their actions when acting as such. Business owner's have a good amount of authority over the way they conduct business, but the law still comes into play. Depending on Georgia statutes, I doubt even the property owner himself could have been held faultless for attempting a gun-grab on a legally carrying customer. Someone correct me if this is wrong.
    No, I did not overlook it, I stated I did not know why the security personnel took the actions he did since we don't have his side of the story from him. In the absence of his side of the story I prefer not to make up reasons or assume he had none. ( which could in the end be the case.)

    -I'm glad that you're an expert at interrogation and deciphering folks' forum postings for truthfulness and lies. Because apparently a lot of folks on this forum (and several others) are idiots for generally taking the word of someone personally known to them and a number of senior personnel on another established local forum.
    I don't consider people who have never been trained or have any experience in interviews and interrogations to be idiots because they don't know what the elements of a truthful statement and a untruthful one are. But I have to wonder when someone that bolsters his opinions on the subject by announcing his Former LEO status does not know or simply does not recognize this.

    Mathar may or may not be telling the truth, embellishing, whatever the case may be. But a good number of reputable folks on GPDO seem to find him trustworthy. You, on the other hand sort of came out of nowhere to insinuate he's a liar. I would love to hear that you are a cop in the area where this happened and thus know it's all a sham, so we can close this thread. I'm really not kidding.
    No I am not a cop in his area, but I do not have to be in order to apply my training and experience to his statement. Remember that Mathar1's post was not a result of someone questioning him. he initiated the thread, and told the story in his own words. precisely the thing an interviewer or interrogator wants. A good investigator taking a statement does not begin by asking questions, He begins by asking the person he is interviewing or interrogating to just tell their story of what happened in their own words.

    And seriously- the moment you think you're an expert at interrogation and interviewing is the moment you are not. I've heard completely unbelievable stories that turned out to be true.
    The content of the story is not the ONLY factor in judging a true or false statement. In fact I would not have read someone's entire story to suspect he is not being truthful. Truthful and untruthful statements follow a pattern, it has to do with how we relate things. Particularly stressful or traumatic incidents.

    There does seem to be a bit of inverted Gecko45 going on with this story, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
    I didn't claim it didn't happen, I pointed out that his statement would be viewed by a trained experienced interrogator as being untruthful. I could theorize why he is not telling the truth but that is all it would be a theory.

    -Calls don't always make the blotters. Say what you will about written SOPs, laws, policies, etc. I've lived in the real world as a big-city cop (and been involved in military incident investigations as well). Inconvenient things go missing all the time. Dispatchers fail in their duties, shift Sgts make judgment calls, administrators look the other way, newspaper editors are human, etc., etc..
    A call for service in which one party is hospitalized due to the actions of someone else is not going to be "lost". Depts. justify their manpower and their budgets based on the number of calls they respond to. So they are pretty strict about calls being documented. Especially now in a time of budget cuts and downsizing.

    Again, welcome to DC. Maybe you can introduce yourself and give us something less subjective for why you are so suspicious of Mathar1. We'd love to know more.
    First would be his own statement in his own words.

    Second, First he claims his "bodyguard" boss cleared him of wrong doing stating he did nothing wrong, that he only did what he had been trained to do, and it was ok because his "boss" authorized him to be armed at all times. and that his "boss" would make it "go away".

    He also claimed initially that his attorney had cleared him to post about the incident as long as he left out names and locations. Then later when under pressure for answers says, his attorney chewed him out for posting anything.

    Third, when his fellow forums members press him for details or start offering support he claims early the next day that his attorney already cleared it up. that he had met with the ADA and the ADA declared he would not press charges.

    Now he posted his initial thread on the incident at 4:40 PM on Dec 29 claiming his hands were still shaking from the adrenaline so we can assume that the incident occurred a few hours earlier. on Dec 30 at 9:04 A.M. he posts claiming his attorney cleared it all up. Now anyone with LE experience knows that it isn't going to be cleared up that fast. and no ADA is going to decline to press charges without having the police report in hand first. And it is highly unlikely That the responding LEO's had gotten the report to the ADA in that time frame. Later Mathar1 himself confirms this when he admits the matter is STILL under investigation.

    Fourth, When Forum members ask him to PM the name of his super attorney as they live in the area and would like to use him if they need an attorney. Mathar1 who initially claimed his "bodyguard boss" provided him with legal counsel if needed suddenly hems and haws and declares the attorney is his own attorney that he uses for his own business and is not a criminal attorney. So he won't provide the name.

    Does all the above sound like someone being truthful?

  12. #146
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    AlphaMale-
    Well, I guess you pass the test.
    Welcome aboard. I think you'll like it here, and your opinions can be very valuable. Hopefully you'll stick around and share some of your experiences and insights with us.

    You make excellent points about his story and some highly suspect statements. Thanks for clarifying and articulating what you meant.

    As to taking the OP at his word- it's my personal preference to take a "We'll see," approach and wait on evidence. I have nothing like 25+ years as an LEO, so I appreciate what you bring to the table. But as I stated before, I've seen some pretty fantastical reports from some mall-cops and campus security guys that turned out to be true once we viewed tapes. Not to mention reviewing other officers' reports and then watching the cams. At first we're all standing around going, "Okay, yeah right." and then we're going, "You gotta be kidding me!" And I could only wish we had tapes of some of the things we saw in Iraq. People would swear it was special effects. "That just happened!"

    I think at this point, I'll withhold any further comments or speculation until a news story breaks, or a video surfaces to back up the OP. But I'm not holding my breath.

    Again- AlphaMale, thanks for clarifying. Very cogent argument.

    BTW- this topic has been closed by the mods on at least 2 other forums pending further info from the OP. Maybe not a bad idea.

    Semper Fi
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  13. #147
    Member Array AlphaMale's Avatar
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    HardCorps79,

    Thanks for the welcome, Sorry if my initial post seemed vague. I tend to try and communicate with as few words as possible and avoid long posts when I can. Unfortunately this can sometimes be viewed as being vague instead of just being a lazy typist.

    And yes I know what you mean about incredible stories that turn out to be true, heard plenty myself. And even experienced a few first hand.

    And thanks for your service, both as an LEO and in the military.

  14. #148
    Member Array HUSTLEnomics's Avatar
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    I am a Security Officer, and upon seeing the title of this thread caused m jaw to drop. To my understanding a Private Security Officer is not allowed to disarm a person even if they are carrying a weapon in building they are assigned to thaat has policy against weapons on site. We are only allowed to put out hands on person in selfdefense or in case persons under our care our being threatened. This clearly was not the case.

    I was on duty once and was instructed to check bags before customers entered the store so that when they leave I have an idea of what was inside before they left. When leaving store a final check of bags was done. Once time I asked a gentleman to allow me to check his fanny pack. He obliged, but before doing so he showed me his Concealed Handgun License, and made me aware that his firearm was inside the fanny pack. I let him go without incident and there was no issue or animosity. I did my job, and did not intrude on anyone's right to bear arms in public. Our store had no policy in place regarding weapons on site.

    If the place this guard was assigned to had a policy then he should have only made the gentleman aware of it, and asked him to leave the site if he had to remain armed. If he was uncomfortable leaving his firearm in possession(my company would not have even wanted us to have responsibility of holding on to the firearm) of security, or inside his own vehicle he should have been allowed to leave peacefully. A confrontation of that sort is completely not the proper action a Private Security Officer should have taken. Im quite sure he was fired or at least removed from that assignment. If a citizen does not comply with a Private Security Officer's instructions, we don't have the authority of a LEO, so we cannot force them to do so. At that point, it's his job to call local police and have them to get involved, and possibly do the disarming properly if its called for at all. Property management or owner of property is the next call he should make so that gentleman can be given an official trespass warning and instructed not to return.

    Guys like this give security officers a bad name.
    Don't Knock The HU$TLE! When all else fails, I have a HU$TLER's Ambition! When the economy goes to crap, I will maintain and u wont! The hunger I have to survive, and your inability to handle the struggles we have ahead is what seperates you & I!

  15. #149
    Member Array AlphaMale's Avatar
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    Ran across this while hunting for more info on this incident.

    Well, here is the response I got from Josh Rayburn from the Savannah newspaper:

    We havenít been able to find out anything to prove itís real.

    Josh Rayburn
    Metro Editor
    Savannah Morning News
    912-652-0414
    josh.rayburn@savannahnow.com
    savannahnow.com | Savannah Morning News

    I e-mailed him the various links and gave him and the team of reporters that he supervises the chance to run this story down. Savannah is the hometown of the poster that claimed he knocked the guard silly that tried to take his gun. Since Savannah is a town of only 132,000 folks, chances are if this happened in or around there, one of the many sources that a newspaper would have (police, courts, public records, etc, etc.) would have something.

  16. #150
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUSTLEnomics View Post
    I am a Security Officer, and upon seeing the title of this thread caused m jaw to drop. To my understanding a Private Security Officer is not allowed to disarm a person even if they are carrying a weapon in building they are assigned to thaat has policy against weapons on site. We are only allowed to put out hands on person in selfdefense or in case persons under our care our being threatened. This clearly was not the case.

    I was on duty once and was instructed to check bags before customers entered the store so that when they leave I have an idea of what was inside before they left. When leaving store a final check of bags was done. Once time I asked a gentleman to allow me to check his fanny pack. He obliged, but before doing so he showed me his Concealed Handgun License, and made me aware that his firearm was inside the fanny pack. I let him go without incident and there was no issue or animosity. I did my job, and did not intrude on anyone's right to bear arms in public. Our store had no policy in place regarding weapons on site.

    If the place this guard was assigned to had a policy then he should have only made the gentleman aware of it, and asked him to leave the site if he had to remain armed. If he was uncomfortable leaving his firearm in possession(my company would not have even wanted us to have responsibility of holding on to the firearm) of security, or inside his own vehicle he should have been allowed to leave peacefully. A confrontation of that sort is completely not the proper action a Private Security Officer should have taken. Im quite sure he was fired or at least removed from that assignment. If a citizen does not comply with a Private Security Officer's instructions, we don't have the authority of a LEO, so we cannot force them to do so. At that point, it's his job to call local police and have them to get involved, and possibly do the disarming properly if its called for at all. Property management or owner of property is the next call he should make so that gentleman can be given an official trespass warning and instructed not to return.

    Guys like this give security officers a bad name.
    Great post!
    Set aside the debate over whether or not it really happened and look at it as a fictional scenario.
    Play it out in your head and think of what you would do in the exact same situation.
    How many of us here, after being grabbed from behind, by basically a stranger, with no verbal warning, are going to let someone just disarm you?
    Who is this person? Can you even see a badge from his body position and yours? Is he really a security guard? Could his uniform be fake? Why didn't he give a verbal warning to "STOP"? What are his intentions, if he succeeds in disarming you? Does he know how to handle your firearm safely?
    What would you do?
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

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