What do you say to this...??

This is a discussion on What do you say to this...?? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was discussing OC in another forum just the other day and upon reading all the posts a person posed a question to me that ...

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Thread: What do you say to this...??

  1. #1
    Member Array ecorrigan's Avatar
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    What do you say to this...??

    I was discussing OC in another forum just the other day and upon reading all the posts a person posed a question to me that I thought deserved (just a little) consideration. His question was as follows:
    "Why do you even choose to OC? Don't you know you lose so much tactical advantage when you do? Bad guys can get the drop on you so much quicker that way!!"
    What say all of you? I tend to think it makes it easier to employ your carry handgun in an instance where it's needed if it's easier to get to. As a police officer, I "OC'd" all the time and didn't feel as thought I was losing any tactical advantage in doing so, and I carried in a triple retention holster at that time rather than a single retention like I do now.
    I'm just curious as to what you all might have to say about it.
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    I wish we could OC in Texas, I would!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecorrigan View Post
    "Why do you even choose to OC? Don't you know you lose so much tactical advantage when you do? Bad guys can get the drop on you so much quicker that way!!"
    My only response would be to show me evidence of someone loosing a tactical advantage by OC'ing. I know of no study that showed it.

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    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    My big reason I choose to CC most of the time is I just don't want anyone to know. The "OMG, a man with a gun!" from some scaredy-cat, or the silly questions....."you a cop?", "you expecting trouble?", etc. is one reason. The 'tactial' reason that some BG won't know until I let it be known I'm armed is another. But overall, it's just my business and nobody elses.

    I have and do, on occasion, OC. My biggest reason is that it's just convient at the time.....usually coming/going from the range or me having to stop whatever it is I'm doing to run to the store to handle a quick 'something-or-other' on SHMBO'ed hunny-do list and I just don't take the time to cover my sidearm up. (read: lazy)

    I don't think much either way if someone else chooses to OC. My daughter gave me the 'shirt-tug' awhile back and pointed out that the gentleman ahead of us at a restruant "has a gun". I showed her that his sidearm (a very pretty 1911) was in a rather 'nice' leather holster and said gentleman had his wallet out to pay, like the rest of us, and his behavior/demeanor suggested no threat. Made her think. It was a good lesson in SA. The guy did overhear our exchange and gave me the 'nod'.......I winked back and that was it. My daughter knows I carry wanted to make sure I knew........I'd 'noticed' him much earlier but, like us, was eating with his family and I choose not to say 'howdy' to him and make some quick small talk. She now knows 'how' to take into account the 'whole picture' when she see's something 'questionable'.

    Again, it's a personal choice overall......at least as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by goldshellback; January 10th, 2010 at 11:15 AM.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    I live in a large metropolitan area and rarely OC. Mainly because of public reaction, and the associated MWAG calls that come from the sheep.
    If I'm out fishing, far enough away from most of the public I sometimes OC. The movements of casting, bending and reaching to land a fish, make it hard to keep a weapon concealed, especially in hot summer weather and minimal clothing. I don't want to lose a fish while I'm fumbling around keeping things covered.
    Where I fish is a pretty popular lake for bass fishing, and I have even been threatened over a fishing spot by a few guys who fish on a professional tour. I have made it clear to these people that if they ever act on any of these threats there will be shots fired, even if they are only from my Canon, and video evidence will be submitted to the BFL/FLW along with the local authorities. When a couple hundred thousand dollars are on the line, some people can get severely stupid.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

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    I like to carry both ways, but with the way most of the public is I would rather carry concealed.That is a good point from RUGERGIRL on carrying while fishing. But you had better check with your local fish and wildlife on carrying a firearm on a boat. In ky we can carry a shotgun or a rifle if we plan on going somewhere to hunt, but we can not carry a pistol for protection.I do not agree with this but that is what the local fish and wildlife told me.

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    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicman View Post
    I like to carry both ways, but with the way most of the public is I would rather carry concealed.That is a good point from RUGERGIRL on carrying while fishing. But you had better check with your local fish and wildlife on carrying a firearm on a boat. In ky we can carry a shotgun or a rifle if we plan on going somewhere to hunt, but we can not carry a pistol for protection.I do not agree with this but that is what the local fish and wildlife told me.
    I would check that more closely with someone that has more control over that issue. Local fish and Wildlife should not be able to tell you nor enforce what you carry for personal protection no matter where you are.
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    Member Array wkientz1's Avatar
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    I will OC if I can but we are not allowed here in our county. Besides the element of surprise is gone with OCing.
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    I CC far more than OC.

    However, I've had two experiences where OC appeared to head off a likely problem, which might have developed were I CCing.

    I know of situations where the BG's SA was zip. One recent case here in VA, the OC that was missed by the BG was a BIG cowboy action wheel-gun.

    I know that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "evidence".

    However, I think it is a wash.
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    Personally, I OC in the woods only. I've never had a complaint from the deer, squirrels or birds. OC in the street can cause confusion and fear. I know it's legal in many cities, but it drives the cops nuts. Callers stating 'hey there's a guy walking up the street with a gun on his hip'. In today's society, the common citizen equates a gun with a shooting rampage. Carrying a defensive weapon should be all about concealment. Just my 2 cents.
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    I guess I'm the only one who OC's the vast majority of the time here.

    In the spring, summer and fall (not right now when the temperature seems to hover around 2 most of the time) I OC almost exclusively. I do so for a variety of reasons. One being it is just so much more comfortable. I don't have to have that extra cover garment on when it is hot.
    Another is, it is much easier to get the gun into action if need be. No extra cover garment to sweep out of the way or get fouled in the draw.
    Also, I have never had a problem with anyone freaking out save for one pin headed cop who hassled me while I was standing in my own driveway with an OC gun on my hip. I wrote about it here, you can find the thread.

    But, show me any write up, news report or other finding where someone who was OC was targeted for his OC, robbed, shot or other wise accosted. It doesn't happen.

    There are several reasons for this: criminals are looking for easy targets. Someone OC'ing has at the very least shown that they have the ability to kill that criminal if they are attacked. Also, maybe they are an off duty LEO, the criminal does not know if they are or not.

    I don't know about all of you, maybe some will admit this but I am sure most will not, but when I OC I am much more aware of my surroundings just because I am looking for that first blue haired old lady to freak out at the sight of my gun. Hasn't happened yet but it may. When I CC I do not have to look for that reaction. Not that I drop my situational awareness, it's just that I am actively looking for the adverse reaction when OC'ing.

    Now, I have seen some completely oblivious CC'ers out there. Some that think that just because their gun is covered by their shirt that no one can tell. That bull. I spot CC'ers all the time. They give themselves away with tells. They habitually touch the gun through the cover garment just to subconsciously reassure themselves that it is there. They pull their pants up by grabbing the holster at the bottom and lifting the entire rig up. They flash the gun inadvertently when reaching for their wallet. Things like that. There is also the guys who print so badly they may as well be OC. Of there is an unmistakable bulge right there where the gun is.

    These people tend to not scan their surroundings because they believe that no one knows they are armed. But if I see it, then you can bet that some savvy criminals (and there are plenty of them out there) see it too. In my opinion someone who poorly conceals when they carry, and tends not to have good SA is much more likely to be targeted for their gun than someone who OC's.

    One last little thing. I also OC because I just hate the feeling from so many, some right here on this site as well, that we as armed citizens should always hide our guns so as not to offend the sensibilities of the sheeple in society. In my opinion that is just crap. It is legal here in Tennessee to open carry. It is legal in every county and every part of the state. If it is legal to carry at all some place then OC is legal as well. So I do it to exercise that right and to try in my own little way to acclimate the sheeple to the sight of a legally openly carried gun. The more of them that see it as something akin to normal, the better it is for all of us. And it's working. There are many of us who do the same thing here in Shelby County. The Sheriffs Department trains their deputies on civilian open carry. I have spoken to many deputies and they have told me that they are trained on it, that it is 100% legal and that they are not to hassle someone who is open carrying. And the sheeple here, and there are a lot of them as Shelby County is unfortunately the most liberal county in the state, do not freak out and call the police at the mere sight of an openly carried handgun.

    That's why I open carry.
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    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    ......and TN Mike's reasons are the best, most thoughtful reasons.

    Thank you for the objectiveness.

    This ain't scarsam either.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

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    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jacket View Post
    Personally, I OC in the woods only. I've never had a complaint from the deer, squirrels or birds. OC in the street can cause confusion and fear. I know it's legal in many cities, but it drives the cops nuts. Callers stating 'hey there's a guy walking up the street with a gun on his hip'. In today's society, the common citizen equates a gun with a shooting rampage. Carrying a defensive weapon should be all about concealment. Just my 2 cents.
    Yes if you are old enough to conceal it! I'm not 21 yet but can still OC.... and thats what I choose to do!
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    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I wish we could OC here in Texas.
    As far as the "tactical advantage" goes. The bad guy has the tactical advantage. The bad guy is the one that is choosing the time and place of our interactions. The bad guy (in most cases) will be the one drawing first. Presuming we have a tactical advantage assumes that the bad guy is working under the assumption that everyone else is unarmed! If the bad guy is operating under the assumption that everyone in the place is CC where is our advantage?
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    "One last little thing. I also OC because I just hate the feeling from so many, some right here on this site as well, that we as armed citizens should always hide our guns so as not to offend the sensibilities of the sheeple in society. In my opinion that is just crap. It is legal here in Tennessee to open carry. It is legal in every county and every part of the state. If it is legal to carry at all some place then OC is legal as well. So I do it to exercise that right and to try in my own little way to acclimate the sheeple to the sight of a legally openly carried gun. The more of them that see it as something akin to normal, the better it is for all of us. And it's working. "

    I'll second this by TN Mike for a big part of my reason in NC. OC or CC gets me the biggest part of what I want, protection for me and my family. CC will never convince someone that normal folks carry, they don't see it so it does not exist. I don't think the exploding numbers mean as much as seeing someone go about their business; smiling, talking, maybe dragging along the family, while openly armed.

    As far as tactical advantage/disadvantage. Think about this. Most criminals want to strong arm/bully someone out of something with the least resistance, effort, and time involved. It's an in and out proposition with most robberies. Would you target someone who was armed? There are some nut cases out there, but I think most would pass on the armed guy for the next unarmed and unaware one. He cannot prove that it's a tactical disadvantage anymore than I can prove it's a deterrent. It's only an opinion that has been stated so much it has become "fact." People need to own their opinions. If he feels that way for himself, fine. But don't feel that way for me, my decisions are mine alone.

    I've argued this ad nausem on many boards. My bet is that nothing you say will change his attitude. He does not like OC, for whatever reason, and wants to impress on you that it's a bad idea. Maybe it strokes his ego. Personally, carry any way you wish, just carry. Folks that criticize how are just a small step up from anti. It's the equivalent of the hunters who are willing to sacrifice the black rifles to save their own. Either we are in this together or we are not.

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