WI State Trooper harasses law-abiding Open-Carrier. Demonstration this Sunday - Page 6

WI State Trooper harasses law-abiding Open-Carrier. Demonstration this Sunday

This is a discussion on WI State Trooper harasses law-abiding Open-Carrier. Demonstration this Sunday within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Looks like free advertisement for open carry in WI. I hope it works out well for them....

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Thread: WI State Trooper harasses law-abiding Open-Carrier. Demonstration this Sunday

  1. #76
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Looks like free advertisement for open carry in WI. I hope it works out well for them.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

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  2. #77
    Senior Member Array canav844's Avatar
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    Officer noticed unusual behavior (9 out of 10 people do not carry a gun to the coffe shop in the Milwaukee suburbs), so he investigated further. Perfectly acceptable, and proves those tax dollars are being put to some use. OC'er carries in compliance with the law, if you want to carry in WI it must be OC, this presents a few minor hurdles, but it makes you look suspicious esp. in areas of the state where such behavior is not common.

    Beauty of these forums is that you can read up on other peoples experience of similar legal behavior, from doing such I have gathered the impression that if you OC it's a matter of when not if there will be a confrontation with someone, hence many of the "reaction" threads on this very board. As these confrontations have gone both ways, having some sort of recording device would not be unreasonable. If I felt the need to carry such a device, to have it running in advance of a situation so I wasn't worried about the camera during a situation that my focus would need to be elsewhere, would be prudent.

    Officer checks store policy regarding firearms, good move, though it could have been handled with more discretion. Store employee fumbles the answer to the officer's question, which inherently changes the permissibility of carrying firearms in the store; now as has been reported the store does indeed allow OC, and had before this incident. If presented where the rules have changed, it would be prudent to gather up your belongings (food and in this case camera) and politely step out. With no posting requirement there is a gray area present.

    OCing where it is legal to do so, by itself does not constitute impersonating an officer, having an antenna on your car does not constitute impersonating an officer, having a HAM ticket does not constitute impersonating an officer. All of the above combined still doesn't constitute it, and the Sheriff Deputies agreed. And BTW this is WI, at least 1 in 20 cars has a big honkin' CB antenna on the roof, it's not exactly out of the ordinary in fact it's quite common. The thing on the radiator looks like the BMW or Cadillac night vision stuff.

    There's a lot of coulda, shoulda, woulda here; the laws could have been different (requiring signs for nonOC businesses or had a CC system in place), the store employee should have answered properly, or sought correct information before giving a definite answer, and the OC'er noticing the State Police watching him before entering, could have confirmed the business's allowing of OC. The impersonating an officer attempt to charge, reflects poorly on the officer and his agency, it was obviously invalid and appears quite petty, and a waste of the time of the sheriff's deputies.

    With the WI carry lawsuit about the school zones, and WI being one of only two states lacking a CC option (while there is significant support for the right to be permitted in both states), I think the laws and debate in WI is far from settled. Internet Monday Morning Quarterbacking isn't going to fix those areas, but hopefully the gathering resulting from this will draw some attention to the lapses so that the legislators can close the gaps in the gray areas.

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    I think you guys got so tied up with the initial interaction on the video that you missed Logans post #5 quote.

    "The same state trooper later contacted the Waukesha County Sheriff and suggested that our member was impersonating a police officer because he was open-carrying (completely legal) and driving a Hyundai Elantra that has antennae on it. (when was the last time you saw a Hyundai Elantra used as a police vehicle?)

    3 Waukesha County Sheriffs paid a visit to our member at 10:30 at night on Monday in response to the state troopers misplaced complaint."

    So how does this play in the doing your job v harassment debate?

    I've been on the sending end of this type of harassment. I have family in the local PD. I had a problem with a girlfriends brother who vandalized my car while stoned out of his head. I was told the LEO would pay him a visit to serve the warrant "as late as possible." The guy was a trouble maker and know to the cops. They seemed to enjoy the thought of making his evening miserable. So the OC guy gets a late evening visit by 3 officers on an odd charge, seems suspicious to me. I see some similarities in the two, possibly going out of their way to make the interaction uncomfortable. If this guy was serious about the impersonating charge why not hold him at the restaurant for the other officers?

    Anyway, I would try to get any FOIA paperwork on the evening call and try to see if I could find out what it was about.

  4. #79
    Member Array Davensquirt's Avatar
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    I live 10 minutes from this area, I deal with Law Enforcement daily as well as being a retired LEO.

    If there was a complaint issued the Waukesha County Deputies would have been dispatched to this location not Highway Patrol.

    As Sixto stated Law Enforcement is trained to be not only Reactive but Proactive as this officer demonstrated.

    The officer is a Wisconsin Highway Patrol Officer and was most likely doing paperwork in the parking (normally in this area because of his patrol) lot when the individual exited his vehicle, opened his trunk and placed his weapon on his hip (all legal and by the book) however suspicious in this area.

    OC is really new to this state and there is still a lot of acceptance needed by LE, as well as confusion to the legalities of OC in Wisconsin.

    The officer was not Badge Heavy in any way shape or form, he was mearly being proactive (could cause a disturbance, civil unrest etc) to a situation we are not all familuar with.

    The proprietors of the restaurant, can barely speak english and at times may have expressed concern over this matter on previous visits and a briefing to departments in this area could have indicated they didn't feel comfortable with OC, this officer may have been reacting to this based on that, who knows?????

    As far as 3 deputies going to the individuals home to investigate any allegations made by the officer, they were doing there job and more is being made of this. I investigate allegations daily and find they are unfounded but thats my job, also not to be construed as harassment.

    Law Enforcement in this area and all areas I find in Wisconsin are friendly, polite, knowledgeable and held in the highest standards of professionalism, until you piss them off. Just as it is in 49 other states.

    This thread looks more like an attack on LE than it is regarding this guys rights and his vehicle. This guy could be on the Volunteer Fire Department and has all the scanners set up because he is the communications guy for the fire department again we don't know. Could be the Director for FEMA in the area.

    Too many variables to the story, hopefully Wisconsin will be able to pass the CC issue, now that our Governor is resigning (Yea us), and we get someone who is more 2A friendly, then this wont be an issue.

    So what if the guy had a recorder this is what people do, fine. The officer handled it in a very professional manner and it could have been worse. He could have been detained and questioned disarmed and a body cavity search conducted, then asked to leave
    Dave
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  5. #80
    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davensquirt View Post
    OC is really new to this state and there is still a lot of acceptance needed by LE, as well as confusion to the legalities of OC in Wisconsin.
    OC may be new so education may be needed. Acceptance is unacceptable as they dont have to approve of the law just uphold it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davensquirt View Post
    many variables to the story, hopefully Wisconsin will be able to pass the CC issue, now that our Governor is resigning (Yea us), and we get someone who is more 2A friendly, then this wont be an issue.
    Yeah CC would be great but what is wrong with OCing? (not to start a debate) It is the current law of the land and we should have the right to carry ANY way we want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davensquirt View Post
    So what if the guy had a recorder this is what people do, fine. The officer handled it in a very professional manner and it could have been worse. He could have been detained and questioned disarmed and a body cavity search conducted, then asked to leave
    It could have been worse, you are correct. It could have been better and the man left alone to do his business.

    Law Enforcement has a tough job and I respect them for it, but when it APPEARS they have bothered a law abiding citizen because of personal beliefs or a lack of education then something should be done about it. If I do something that APPEARS wrong while I am at work I have to deal with the consequences.

  6. #81
    Member Array Davensquirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bkrazy View Post
    OC may be new so education may be needed. Acceptance is unacceptable as they dont have to approve of the law just uphold it.



    Yeah CC would be great but what is wrong with OCing? (not to start a debate) It is the current law of the land and we should have the right to carry ANY way we want.



    It could have been worse, you are correct. It could have been better and the man left alone to do his business.

    Law Enforcement has a tough job and I respect them for it, but when it APPEARS they have bothered a law abiding citizen because of personal beliefs or a lack of education then something should be done about it. If I do something that APPEARS wrong while I am at work I have to deal with the consequences.
    Your right, but understand, we were just recently given the ability to OC by the Attorney General in Wisconsin, not everyone is use to seeing people with guns on there hip yet. And he stepped forward not to many liking the idea of OC.

    Wisconsin is comprised of a bunch of Little Old Ladys with the phone in there hand and 91 is dialed just waiting for something to happen to press the other 1.

    This is an education waiting to happen for all involved and through time and acceptance.
    Dave
    I carry a gun cause a cop is too heavy.

  7. #82
    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    What I would like to know, and we will never know, is what would this cop have done had the lady behind the counter said yes, weapons are allowed.

    I think given the aggressive and confrontational mannerisms of this cop. He would not have accepted that.

    This was a cop looking for a fight, who created a situation out of nothing.

  8. #83
    Member Array SAMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I always record myself eating Chinese food too. I also hurry in to get my camera set before a cop pops in and tells me exactly what I suspect he's going to. It is so obviously an attempted set up, its actually insulting to my intelligence.

    I'll support peoples rights 24/7 'till I die. But I got to say, this shenanigan is an embarrassment to 2A supporters everywhere. This is the exact kind of antics that many feel do more harm than good, and why the OC crowd is having trouble gaining momentum in the gun community as a whole.
    I'm going to have to agree with this..
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  9. #84
    New Member Array Orphan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    That is what happened. Cop see's a man with a gun (which is probably very out of the ordinary in that area) and investigates. Sorry you don't like it, but that is what cops are supposed to do. The man agrees to comply with the proprietors wishes and cop goes away. He did nothing more than enforce the law.

    And you will not see things my way. You can't or won't. That is OK with me, it doesn't matter what you or I think anyway. But I will say that out of the two of us, I'm the only one who has been on both sides of the fence.
    Sixto If OC is lawfull then there was no Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (RAS) for the Officer to do any thing more than start a conversation with the OCer and the OCer didn't even have to respond. RAS means the Officer has to think a crime is about to be commited, has been commited or is being commited. RAS has to be more than a hunch or a feeling. Not knowing this can get the State, County or City that the Officer works for a trip to court and find them selfs paying a big lawsuit. If you truly are a LEO you should know what a legal Terry Stop is. Every citizen should understand the laws, most do not.


    Seeing a clown walking a Great Dane on a leash down Main St is probably very out of the ordinary also but does not rise to RAS unless the local 7/11 was just robbed by a clown.

    If I were the OCer in this case I would immediatly do a FOIA request and get all of the records, 911 calls, radio logs etc and if there was not a call in about a OCer then I would see the Officer and the State in court.

    It is not OK ever to violate someones rights. It is not unlawfull to have radio antennas on your car, scanners, CBs or anything else pictured on the car. Once again there is no RAS.

  10. #85
    Member Array Davensquirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    What I would like to know, and we will never know, is what would this cop have done had the lady behind the counter said yes, weapons are allowed.

    I think given the aggressive and confrontational mannerisms of this cop. He would not have accepted that.

    This was a cop looking for a fight, who created a situation out of nothing.
    In Post #13 it stated

    On Monday Feb. 15th, one of our members, "Joseph" was doing something he has done on many occasions. That is sitting down for lunch at China-Wok in Sussex, WI while open-carrying as law-abiding citizens do in Wisconsin.

    This statement leeds me to believe that LE may have been previously contacted by this business, who didn't feel comfortable about this individual OC in there business. I have been to this business and tend to believe this is what occured.

    And if the lady behind the counter did state it is ok, the officer really couldn't do much about it then.

    As I stated before, this is all new, they don't know what signs are needed (because it isn't in the state statutes yet) to dis-allow weapons in the businesses.

    I am sure this will happen more and more. Eventually OC will become more acceptable as time permits.

    Joseph handled himself very well, as I feel the officer was very professional and courteous.

    As far as the planned OC get together, in Sussex, I hope all goes well and everyone enjoys themselves. Wish I could attend, but out of town this weekend.
    Dave
    I carry a gun cause a cop is too heavy.

  11. #86
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    Orphan, RAS is based on the totality of the circumstances. We dont know what the totality of the circumstances were because we have not heard anything from the officer in question - we have only heard ONE side of this. I would imagine if we heard from the officer on this we might hear a very different series of events leading up to this confrontation. I am not saying the officer was right or wrong, and I am not saying the situation was handled well by either party. All I am saying is how about suspending judgement until a little more is known.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  12. #87
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Look at another side, no LEO is unaware of some of the 'intentional' police shootings that have occurred in the country. 3 walk in to have lunch, he may have been "uncomfortable". Right, no matter how uncomfortable he is it doesn't mean we give up our rights. But, I don't see any harrassment here.
    The Officer could have used a better tone of voice to communicate his request to disarm. But, he didn't even disarm the guy or anything like that, he asked him to "put it in your car".

    Doing a protest over this is over-board, and hurts us all.

  13. #88
    New Member Array Orphan's Avatar
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    I agree with you on the totality of circumstances, what I was arguing with Sixto about was his statement "Cop see's a man with a gun (which is probably very out of the ordinary in that area) and investigates. Sorry you don't like it, but that is what cops are supposed to do." That is deffinatly not RAS, does not warrent a Terry Stop and is not what cops are supposed to do.

    I will stand by my statement that if a FOIA request does not come up with a call/complaint etc the Officer acted outside of the law. If that is the case the Officer at a minimum needs educated/counseled. I would most likely insist on an apologie and sue if it did not happen.

  14. #89
    New Member Array winken's Avatar
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    My .02....It is legal to open carry a firearm in WI, always has been...over the years very few have excercised the right because of harassment from LEO. Since CC has been denied by the State, more people are excercising the right to bear arms the only way they can, open carry. Because of the continueing harassment from law enforcement, WI attorney General issued a statment to all WI law enforcment that open carry is legal. There are a few LEO that still persist. There are several civil rights suits in progress now because of open carry arrests of citizens legally carrying. Voice and video recorders are the norm with WI open carriers for this reason.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    Sixto If OC is lawfull then there was no Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (RAS) for the Officer to do any thing more than start a conversation with the OCer and the OCer didn't even have to respond.
    True enough except for one detail; this is what the officer did. He walked in, asked the owner if they allowed guns in their business. The answer was no. So, he then upheld the business owners right to not allow guns in their establishment. There was no arrest and no detainment. There was no pat down. There was no Terry stop. The OC'r was simply advised of the businesses wishes, and he agreed to comply with WI law. Even though there is clear RS, None was actually needed for this interaction. The end.
    Last edited by SIXTO; February 19th, 2010 at 08:53 AM.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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