WI State Trooper harasses law-abiding Open-Carrier. Demonstration this Sunday

This is a discussion on WI State Trooper harasses law-abiding Open-Carrier. Demonstration this Sunday within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; can we get a confirmation for the second LEO encounter? I watched the video and nowhere in there is anything harrassing. The LEO went in ...

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Thread: WI State Trooper harasses law-abiding Open-Carrier. Demonstration this Sunday

  1. #106
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    can we get a confirmation for the second LEO encounter? I watched the video and nowhere in there is anything harrassing.

    The LEO went in and checked with employees if guns are allowed in there to which he got a no.

    He asked joseph to secure his gun in his car.

    When the LEO was told he carried in there before he asked the employee again and she replied that she didn't know.

    The LEO explained it was fine if they allowed guns in there if they didn't he wanted joseph to put the gun in the car. It ended with the LEO telling joseph to have a good day.


    I don't want to discredit joseph but I think the second enounter at 10:30pm a bit hard to believe... I think joseph blew it out of proportion.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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  3. #107
    Member Array DIXIETWISTER's Avatar
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    The guy baited the cop into making a wrong decision. Cops are human too, i bet if the civillan in this was a cop he would be Badge or gun heavy. the cop was wrong and the hyndua driver was glad. A 2nd Amendment sting....like the A.C.O.R.N videos.......hmmm..? the other 2 police officers were impersonating me.....lol
    You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
    You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
    However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
    1) Call someone with a gun.
    2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man

  4. #108
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    How was he wrong Dixie? What would you have done differently?

    Pretend you are a judge presiding over a lawsuit the OC'er has brought against the trooper. On what basis could you find him at fault?

    Or better yet, pretend you are the attorney representing the OC'er. Make your case to the jury.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #109
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIXIETWISTER View Post
    The guy baited the cop into making a wrong decision. Cops are human too, i bet if the civillan in this was a cop he would be Badge or gun heavy. the cop was wrong and the hyndua driver was glad. A 2nd Amendment sting....like the A.C.O.R.N videos.......hmmm..? the other 2 police officers were impersonating me.....lol
    What was the bait? A legal open carried handgun? In a place he had OCd before? That makes zero sense.

  6. #110
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    This argument doesn't make sense.

    I think we all agree that a firearm is an inanimate object, right? A harmless tool and only becomes dangerous when the user uses it in such a manner that is either unsafe or with intentions to inflict harm?

    The logic you are using Orphan makes no sense in the reality of the situation. Here examples why;

    Lets replace the gun in this scenario with something audience here is not so passionate about.

    Lets say our OC'er enters the Chinese joint with a baseball bat. Do you still feel the officer should do nothing? Its not illegal to enter a restaurant with a baseball bat after all. Should the officer "mind his own business"?

    How about a brick?
    A pipe?
    A ski mask?
    A tire iron?
    A 2x4?
    A dog?
    How about a long gun? You pick the type.

    How about this; lets say out OC'er doesn't give a crap about guns, but he really likes animals. He thinks that animals have every right to go where people can. So he goes on into the local Super Happy Number 1 Dragon Kitchen for a hearty meal of sweet and sour chicken and sits down at a table with his pack of dogs. Its not illegal to dine with dogs, is it? Should the officer say nothing? Maybe the owner is fine with it, maybe he is not. Maybe the owner loves dogs too... or maybe the owner is afraid the presence of these dogs is going to hurt his business. Shouldn't the officer inquire?

    Or lets replace a Chinese restaurant with a place of worship. Lets make it a synagogue. And lets say our "victim" is out side milling around in the parking lot with a surplus nazi uniform on. Should the officer question that? According to you, no. No law has been broken. Or has it? There is only one way to find out.

    Or lets say our OC'er is walking down the street with a pile of guns in a wheel barrel. The officer should not investigate that?


    Do you see my point yet?
    Using this logic then a LEO has the right to stop you anywhere, anytime, for any reason and ask you what your intentions are. Which they cannot do.

  7. #111
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce130 View Post
    Using this logic then a LEO has the right to stop you anywhere, anytime, for any reason and ask you what your intentions are. Which they cannot do.
    Not anytime, anywhere. I think the idea is simply that if someone is obviously acting weird, a police officer can reasonably look and see whether there's a problem. Yes: there is a huge invasion of personal liberties that happens. That's part of the cost of having effective police in society. It's ugly and messy.

    People complain that they only get involved after the crime happens. When an officer gets involved before a crime happens, people complain about harassment. It's pretty delicate, since obviously not all weird-acting people are about to commit crimes.

  8. #112
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    Those are scanners in his trunk. He also has another scanner and a CB in his cabin.







    ETA: looked through some more of that guys site...

    There's some weird stuff on there. Especially considering it is all hidden in a site that is for a Church.






    Good Gun Folder though
    http://www.protias.com/Pictures/Guns/
    Last edited by HotGuns; February 21st, 2010 at 04:35 PM. Reason: unsuitable links
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  9. #113
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm willing to bet there is no "report" of anything. I will bet my next paycheck that the trooper made the sheriff's office aware of what happened for a few reasons.

    First, the probable back lash like this thread, and a law enforcement action took place in their jurisdiction. It is a common thing to do among agencies. We share information, especially if we are playing in somebody else's backyard.

    Second, for the possibility that this guy is an problem or is about to become one. Every LEO will tell you that every town has at least one guy with the scanners etc that loves to follow the police and or fire department around. Most are harmless (but annoying) enthusiasts, but some are the types that do have "issues" that will begin to create problems (such as setting fires, or breaking windows to set off alarms) on their own in order to create a response from emergency personnel. This is also the type that eventually starts making bogus traffic stops that have been posted about numerous times on this forum. Most of the time, avoiding them getting to that point requires a simple talking to early on.
    This guys car and website fit that mold perfectly. Like I said before, he may be harmless or he might be a nut in waiting. There is only one way to find out.

    If you call speaking from personal experience and actually having professional knowledge having "blue blinders" on, you must have your own 'blinders' on.

    Why don't you tell me where I'm wrong in the posted you quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    This argument doesn't make sense.

    I think we all agree that a firearm is an inanimate object, right? A harmless tool and only becomes dangerous when the user uses it in such a manner that is either unsafe or with intentions to inflict harm?

    The logic you are using Orphan makes no sense in the reality of the situation. Here examples why;

    Lets replace the gun in this scenario with something audience here is not so passionate about.

    Lets say our OC'er enters the Chinese joint with a baseball bat. Do you still feel the officer should do nothing? Its not illegal to enter a restaurant with a baseball bat after all. Should the officer "mind his own business"?

    How about a brick?
    A pipe?
    A ski mask?
    A tire iron?
    A 2x4?
    A dog?
    How about a long gun? You pick the type.

    How about this; lets say out OC'er doesn't give a crap about guns, but he really likes animals. He thinks that animals have every right to go where people can. So he goes on into the local Super Happy Number 1 Dragon Kitchen for a hearty meal of sweet and sour chicken and sits down at a table with his pack of dogs. Its not illegal to dine with dogs, is it? Should the officer say nothing? Maybe the owner is fine with it, maybe he is not. Maybe the owner loves dogs too... or maybe the owner is afraid the presence of these dogs is going to hurt his business. Shouldn't the officer inquire?

    Or lets replace a Chinese restaurant with a place of worship. Lets make it a synagogue. And lets say our "victim" is out side milling around in the parking lot with a surplus nazi uniform on. Should the officer question that? According to you, no. No law has been broken. Or has it? There is only one way to find out.

    Or lets say our OC'er is walking down the street with a pile of guns in a wheel barrel. The officer should not investigate that?


    Do you see my point yet?
    I waited and thought long and hard before I came to my conclusion and agree with Sixto.

    Had the OC'er committed a crime AFTER the police observed him and did nothing this thread would be asking why was there no intervention... Why did the officer observe the guy and not ask questions?

    I am a proponent of OC, CC or any legal method of carry but I don't think this guy helps our cause. I would have co-operated with the officer and told the management on my way out or later that if they did not want legally armed citizens in the place I would take my money elsewhere from now on.

    Had the restaurant supported the OC'er from the beginning there would have been no confrontation with the officer to begin with. JMO
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  10. #114
    New Member Array Orphan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    This argument doesn't make sense.

    I think we all agree that a firearm is an inanimate object, right? A harmless tool and only becomes dangerous when the user uses it in such a manner that is either unsafe or with intentions to inflict harm?

    The logic you are using Orphan makes no sense in the reality of the situation. Here examples why;

    Lets replace the gun in this scenario with something audience here is not so passionate about.

    Lets say our OC'er enters the Chinese joint with a baseball bat. Do you still feel the officer should do nothing? Its not illegal to enter a restaurant with a baseball bat after all. Should the officer "mind his own business"?

    How about a brick?
    A pipe?
    A ski mask?
    A tire iron?
    A 2x4?
    A dog?
    How about a long gun? You pick the type.

    How about this; lets say out OC'er doesn't give a crap about guns, but he really likes animals. He thinks that animals have every right to go where people can. So he goes on into the local Super Happy Number 1 Dragon Kitchen for a hearty meal of sweet and sour chicken and sits down at a table with his pack of dogs. Its not illegal to dine with dogs, is it? Should the officer say nothing? Maybe the owner is fine with it, maybe he is not. Maybe the owner loves dogs too... or maybe the owner is afraid the presence of these dogs is going to hurt his business. Shouldn't the officer inquire?

    Or lets replace a Chinese restaurant with a place of worship. Lets make it a synagogue. And lets say our "victim" is out side milling around in the parking lot with a surplus nazi uniform on. Should the officer question that? According to you, no. No law has been broken. Or has it? There is only one way to find out.

    Or lets say our OC'er is walking down the street with a pile of guns in a wheel barrel. The officer should not investigate that?


    Do you see my point yet?
    Sixto I see the point you are trying to make, I just dont agree with it.

    If it is unlawfull to be walking down the street with a pile of guns in a wheel barrel the Officer should investigate, If it is lawfull to be walking down the street with a pile of guns in a wheel barrel Officer has no business addressing it or even bothering that person or his wheelbarrow full of guns it is simply none of the Officers business.

    Under your argument a LEO could stop a woman walking down the street for prostitution just because she has the right equipment.

    Now any LEO can walk up to any citizen and start a conversation any time they like that is perfectly legal. However the citizen does not have to respond and can simply walk away or ask to be left alone. For an Officer to detain someone at that point he/she would need RAS. Back to is it lawfull or unlawfull.

  11. #115
    New Member Array Orphan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=rottkeeper;1506440]I waited and thought long and hard before I came to my conclusion and agree with Sixto.

    Had the OC'er committed a crime AFTER the police observed him and did nothing this thread would be asking why was there no intervention... Why did the officer observe the guy and not ask questions?


    So you want LEOs to start detaining people that might commit a crime at some point in the future?

  12. #116
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Orphan;1506540]
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    I waited and thought long and hard before I came to my conclusion and agree with Sixto.

    Had the OC'er committed a crime AFTER the police observed him and did nothing this thread would be asking why was there no intervention... Why did the officer observe the guy and not ask questions?


    So you want LEOs to start detaining people that might commit a crime at some point in the future?
    If they have reason to believe one is about to be or is being committed then yes. Had the woman said it was OK to be carrying then the officer would have been wrong. We we not there to see how the guy was acting in the parking lot or observe him at all before he went into lights, camera, action mode.

    As far as Sixto's referencing someone with a wheel barrow full of guns, would you not find that a reason to question him. It may be a stretch, but for sake of discussion....
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  13. #117
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    [QUOTE=Orphan;1506540]
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    I waited and thought long and hard before I came to my conclusion and agree with Sixto.

    Had the OC'er committed a crime AFTER the police observed him and did nothing this thread would be asking why was there no intervention... Why did the officer observe the guy and not ask questions?


    So you want LEOs to start detaining people that might commit a crime at some point in the future?
    Nope, I don't. But where was the detainment in this incident? When did the officer say anything at all to the OC'er?

    I'll answer both; There was no detainment, and the OC'er was approached after the owner or employee said there were no guns allowed.
    had he kicked the guy out or arrested him for trespassing, then asked if the owner allowed guns, I'd agree the officer was in the wrong. But that is not what happened here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    Sixto I see the point you are trying to make, I just dont agree with it.

    If it is unlawfull to be walking down the street with a pile of guns in a wheel barrel the Officer should investigate, If it is lawfull to be walking down the street with a pile of guns in a wheel barrel Officer has no business addressing it or even bothering that person or his wheelbarrow full of guns it is simply none of the Officers business.

    Under your argument a LEO could stop a woman walking down the street for prostitution just because she has the right equipment.

    Now any LEO can walk up to any citizen and start a conversation any time they like that is perfectly legal. However the citizen does not have to respond and can simply walk away or ask to be left alone. For an Officer to detain someone at that point he/she would need RAS. Back to is it lawfull or unlawfull.
    You are right on all points here; but where was the detainment? Even if there was detainment, he did have reason to do so because the owner indicated he did not allow guns in his place.

    Lets talk about the prostitute example for a minute;

    Would the officer be correct in telling a woman to move on if she is dressed like prostitute, acting like one and trying to flag down cars if she were standing in front of your home or place of business? She hasn't broke any laws yet...


    Or how about the smelly homeless guy who has decided to hang out in your lobby? He hasn't broken any laws. But you probably wouldn't want him there.

    What if the Brady Bunch came into your place of business with their anti-gun slogan t shirts on? Would you tell them to leave? I would. I'd also do so if u you asked me as an LEO.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #118
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    I would certainly hope that officers would detain some one who looked like they were about to commit a crime....

    NOT ONE PERSON ON THIS FORUM SAW WHAT THE OC'ER OR THE OFFICER DID.

    So why are we condemning one? seriously. Could the officer have been in the wrong? yes. Could the OC'er have been doing something suspicious based on the time of day, clothing, previous contacts with the police, demeanor, etc? yes.

    I dont see what is so hard to understand about two sides to each story.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  15. #119
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIXIETWISTER View Post
    The guy baited the cop into making a wrong decision. Cops are human too, i bet if the civillan in this was a cop he would be Badge or gun heavy. the cop was wrong and the hyndua driver was glad. A 2nd Amendment sting....like the A.C.O.R.N videos.......hmmm..? the other 2 police officers were impersonating me.....lol
    While I did not see anything in the officers actions that were wrong I do have a problems with your take on it. The person involved was following the letter of the law. He was not going out of his way to entice the officer to do anything. He did not act like he was casing the place or acting suspiciously.

    I have no problem with the actions of either party. If you have a problem with someone obeying the law then maybe the law should be changed to allow him to wear it while driving. Then he would not have had to go to the extra effort to retrieve it that you perceive as baiting.

    Michael

  16. #120
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    mlr1m - how do you know he was doing nothing suspicious? did the officer in question tell you that? - this is what im saying, people are taking these leaps of imagination.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

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