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If a LEO grabs your gun...

This is a discussion on If a LEO grabs your gun... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So we have maybe two incidents of cops grabbing guns from behind? Never mind the millions of interactions with armed citizens across the country in ...

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  1. #31
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    So we have maybe two incidents of cops grabbing guns from behind? Never mind the millions of interactions with armed citizens across the country in which there is nothing but a positive encounter.

    We might as well be wearing steel helmets to protect us against meteors falling from the sky.

    The only real difference is that you probably stand a better chance of getting hit by a meteor than you do of a cop walking behind you and grabbing a gun that you are openly carrying.

    With a thought process like that, we might ought worry about giving up our guns because someone,somewhere in the world got shot.
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  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beachbumcook View Post
    LEO's are not trained to "just walk up behind and unholster a person's gun."
    He is clearly stating possible "out there" scenarios wanting to have a theoretical discussion. I find it interesting, and if you never think about what you would do in crazy sittuations, then you will be unprepared when life throws you a curve ball.

    And just because that is not how they are trained, by no means prevents it from actually happening. LEOs can have lapses in judgment as much as the rest of us.

    To asnwer the original question, I would defend my weapon until I realized it was a LEO and then immediately stop all motion and put my hands up, aplogizing profusely and explain that I didn't know he was a LEO, and when I did I stopped. Hopefully he will understand, and if not, let the lawyers sort it out.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Rather than a LEO imagine this occurring as related to a knucklehead Joe Blow civilian.

    There are many STUPID civilians out there among us as well as drunks, jerks, 'funny guys' and you name it...Never mind all the medicated, un-medicated and un-diagnosed CRAZY people walking among us.

    IMHO the OPs scenario stands only to be applied in a manner of _anyone_ does this.

    A very good reason why OC type persons should be carrying with a good quality active retention type holster.
    Not to do so is bordering on being unsafe as well as just plain stupid.

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Array Avenger's Avatar
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    The LEO would never get to my gun, the retention on my holster wouldnt allow him to, secondly, he would get a whole lot of on him! Probably would end up in the hospital. NOBODY touches my firearm, unless a LEO orders me to surrender it. No order, no way!

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Lets say you are minding your own business and a LEO decides to walk up behind you and un-holster your gun because he plans to "detain" you. You didn't see or hear him coming... naturally you are going to bat, elbow or swing at whomever is trying to take your gun.

    Then after you turn around you realize you just popped a LEO in the mouth and busted his lip...

    How would that play out?
    Doesn't seem a very likely scenario. I can't imagine there are many officers this naively brazen. Much safer to come up with multiple officers and demand a person to freeze, get down, be cuffed, then be disarmed and informed of the reasons why. Safer for all, since it's a complete unknown what a person might do when faced with losing one's defensive weapon to an unknown assailant.

    Almost certainly, you'd get the short end of the stick, legally speaking. No matter what your own perspective, no matter what you knew at the time, no matter the fact the LEO blew it big-time by creating an instant, short-term threat as viewed from the defender, you'd be arrested for assault on an officer at minimum. "Nobody hits a cop!" and all that. They make the rules, whenever that one's ostensibly broken.

    Whether sanity will prevail, IMO, depends on the size of your wallet (in other words, the quality of your legal defense). Unknown as to whether anyone else would listen to the truth, or merely listen to the explanation of the "authority figure" as being the one truth worth listening to (ie, guilty unless proven innocent).

    I'm thinking the defense would be reasonably easy to articulate, though it would depend on who would listen. Given what was known at the time, any reasonable person would have reacted in that first instant in the way described, given the deadly risks of losing that weapon; and, the moment it was realized that a uniform was wrapped about the person attempting to take the defensive sidearm, the defendant ceased defending against the attack.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Lets say you are minding your own business and a LEO decides to walk up behind you and un-holster your gun because he plans to "detain" you. You didn't see or hear him coming... naturally you are going to bat, elbow or swing at whomever is trying to take your gun.

    Then after you turn around you realize you just popped a LEO in the mouth and busted his lip...

    How would that play out?
    You go to jail . Your firearm(s) are confiscated, probably forever. You have a record and will never be able to legally purchase another firearm.
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  7. #37
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    I have removed the comments stating that the question is "stupid". If you believe it is, simply move on without commenting. I also had to edit several of the posts that quoted the "stupid" comments....
    Bumper
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  8. #38
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    There are many ways that this could play out. The most common will would likely be more than one LEO approaching you and identifying themselves with weapons drawn. Different LEO's are going to act differently and that is where these stories come from. Not an everyday technique by any means.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    And that is the only reason he was convicted. He deliberately shot Jensen again after he ceased to be any kind of threat. The fact still remains that Jared Jensen jumped this guy from behind W/out identifying himself as a Police Officer and got shot for his troubles.

    The question doesn't seem quite so stupid now does it?
    I won't use the same word you use, as requested by Thumper. But, yes...the question still seems rather far-fetched. Just as it seems silly to cite an example of using it as a defense where the defense failed. And the fact that the cop killer claimed Detective Jensen never identified himself certainly does not make it true, either. This is a man who attempted to murder his own sister and then executed a Police Officer who was lying on the ground mortaly wounded. If you choose to use that sort of person to establish your baseline of "credible", so be it. I don't. Again..he was convicted of 2nd Degree Murder. The defense did not work. The Detective's family personally asked that the death penalty not be pursued by the DA. There was no inidication that Detective Jensen attempted to "disarm" his murderer. In fact, Detective Jensen still had his handcuffs in his hand when his murderer executed him. Furthermore, after the murderer attempted to kill his own sister (apparently he did not try the "I did not know it was her" defense there....), he was quite aware he was being actively pursued by the police. He had a newspaper article about his attempt to kill his own sister in his pocket when he murdered Detective Jensen and was later captured. Believe his story if you want, but I seriously doubt that this scumbag believed he was the innocent victim of a random mugging. Detective Jensen was murdered attempting to apprehend a wanted felon. You seem to think that his murderer would simply have thrown down his pistol and surrendered peacefully if only Detective Jensen has shouted, "Stop in the name of the law! I'm a Police Officer!". Again, certainly your choice if you choose to believe that. I don't.

    I also clearly stated my thoughts on how I would react if an unidentified person attampted to forecefully disarm me. If you feel the need to cite an example, it would seem to make more sense to cite an example that (1) directly relates to the OP's question ("Here is a case where a LEO chose to walk up behind an innocent person who was legally open carrying and attempted to remove the gun from the holster with no warning of any sort.") and (2) where the defense actually worked. Also maybe an example where the "victim" of the surprise assault from the police was not a man on the run for attempted murder of a family member. It seems to me the OP posed a question about the legality of a violent response to an unknown person attempting to disarm a law abiding citizen legally carrying a gun. You cited an example of a wanted fugutive who was a convicted felon armed with a firearm in violation of the law and who knew the police were seeking to arrest him. He had, in fact, narrowly avoided capture earlier that evening and was very aware that police were in the area looking for him. I really don't see how that relates to a citizen who is guilty of no crime reacting to what they believe to be an assault from an unknown person.
    Just my opinion,
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    Last edited by TheGreatGonzo; February 24th, 2010 at 10:05 AM.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    And that is the only reason he was convicted. He deliberately shot Jensen again after he ceased to be any kind of threat. The fact still remains that Jared Jensen jumped this guy from behind W/out identifying himself as a Police Officer and got shot for his troubles.

    The question doesn't seem quite so stupid now does it?
    Dude, if you can't understand that a murderer on the lamb and a regular Joe OCing at wally world are not the same then you've got issues.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    reacting to the attempt would be absolute... as soon as I was able to identify that it was a LEO then hands out, palms facing and apologize. As soon as the LEO gets done yelling I would also ask respectfully why the attempt to seize my side arm without even asking for it.

    Either way a written complaint would be filed.
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  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    to be honest the scenario is ridiculous at best...a leo has no tactical advantage in attempting to wrestle a gun away from anyone when they could approach with firearm drawn and identify themselves....hand to hand combat is not a definate win for them and potentially could get them killed...

    there is no way a leo is going to risk being overpowered and possibly killed in a situation that they could easily have complete control over...

    please dont use the security gaurd incident as an example again...i think we all agree that was about as foolish a move as anyone could attempt...

    anyone carrying a firearm hs the legal right to defend themselves if they are attacked in anyway....if an officer was foolish (i wont use brave) enough to attempt to disarm someone unannounced he is very likely to take a rightful beating for it....

    and as far as sneaking up behind someone and identifying yourself as an officer while grabbing the gun...well...the same beating may ensue as proof of identification has not been established until the victim is able to visually identify the attacker...otherwise it would be pretty easy to just walk up behind people...say youre a police officer...take their gun...and shoot them...

    why would anyone risk being overtaken and possibly killed when they have the tools available to control the situation form a safe distance?....

    if someone grabs my gun from behind unannounced i will defend myself with every ounce of energy i have and if it happens to be a law enforcement officer i hope my lawyer is having a good day when he gets the call...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beachbumcook View Post
    LEO's are not trained to "just walk up behind and unholster a person's gun."

    First the officer would probably have his hand on his own gun or have his gun down by his side (in hand).

    He would identify himself and give some sort of "command" to stop, please keep you hand away from your gun.... and so on....

    "Space" between an officer and the "other person" is his best defense/offense... a LEO will never just walk up and try to disarm the person... he would tackle the person or some other offensive move first (if he had probable cause)... without "cause"... they will just verbally confront as the first step in the process.
    but suppose if I am hearing impaired and did not hear LEO's "command"?
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rks2 View Post
    but suppose if I am hearing impaired and did not hear LEO's "command"?
    sight and sound make a scene... Think about it you could be completely deaf if you see a LEO with gun pointed at you and you can see his mouth opening like he is yelling something wouldn't you comply? Maybe put hands up and point to your ear or something?

    Don't ask "what if I'm blind?" cause I might die laughing


    Like Bumper said if someone thinks the OP question is too stupid to answer, you don't have to post... Humor the OP will ya?
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  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    To the OP, simple, hands up drop to the ground. Most likely the LEO will have more legal issues to be concerned with then you. Keep calm, and frankly, you may soon have a civil suit that will pay nicely. Maybe the most important thing is to keep statements short, "He attacked me from behind, I had no idea who he was, I want a lawyer."

    Quote Originally Posted by kbox View Post
    Guys, some of these questions about border on ridiculous. I believe I can reasonably assure you that if an Officer is about to try to disarm you their presence will be known. I've been a LEO for 16 years, while I have seen some Officers do things a little different most all departments train on a force continuim. Let's say they start with presence, then go to verbal commands, empty hands, mace, oc, taser, etc. Of course deadly force if it is so justified. I would say that you would be met with verbal commands until whatever "perceived" threat is cleared up.
    Not that ridiculous or no more ridiculous than many other questions that might be considered legitimate. How much time has been spent on topics like bear attack or umbrellas in a storm. All are unlikely events.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbum View Post
    1st off that would never happen....
    Can't agree. I imagine it has happened, or will. A certain % or LEO, just like any other group, will take really stupid actions.

    It is a question worth a moment to consider, then not much more. For the record, one reason I don't OC much is because I'm concerned about someone grabbing for it, or near it.
    Last edited by Thanis; February 24th, 2010 at 07:58 PM.
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