If a LEO grabs your gun... - Page 4

If a LEO grabs your gun...

This is a discussion on If a LEO grabs your gun... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by rks2 but suppose if I am hearing impaired and did not hear LEO's "command"? If you are a legally deaf person who ...

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Thread: If a LEO grabs your gun...

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rks2 View Post
    but suppose if I am hearing impaired and did not hear LEO's "command"?

    If you are a legally deaf person who is legally armed and could show the court that there is no way you could have heard a command from a LEO, then I would imagine you would have a defense against reacting with force, wouldn't you? There have been some very tragic cases where LEO's attempted to apprehend hearing impaired persons without knowing they were hearing impaired with terrible results. One of the most well known took place at Galludet University in D.C.

    However, what is the solution? If a Police Officer believes you are armed and guilty of a crime (not talking about a LEO taking it upon himself/herself to attempt to disarm a legally armed individual for no reason), should he or she be required to step around in front of you, hold up their hand in a "stop" motion, and announce in a loud voice, "I am a Police Officer", while using their other hand to alternately point between their badge and shoulder patches? Is that really the position we expect LEO's to put themselves in?

    I have said it before and I will say it again. I fully support open carry where legal. I also think it ought to be legal everywhere, but it ain't. In those places where it is legal, if a LEO takes it upon himself to, without warning, attempt to disarm a legally armed citizen who is commiting no crime, that LEO should expect to suffer the consequences (especially since I hope people who open carry on a regular basis practice basic gun retention techniques). I think examples of that happening are extremely rare (and I don't think you can cite the example Treo used as being reasonably applicable). We can cite a few cases of concealed carry permit holders committing murder. We can even cite a few example of permit holders shooting a LEO's. However, those examples are very rare and it would be silly for me, as a LEO, to presume that all, most, or even many permit holders would attempt to shoot me during an official interaction.

    I think it is great that people can pose "what if" questions in this forum. I also think that constantly playing the "what if" game in your head can help prepare your for actual incidents, should they occur. I also believe, however, that you have to consider what might reasonbly happen as opposed to what is very unlikely to happen when you engage in that type of thing.

    Again, just my opinion,
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".


  2. #47
    Member Array dougwg's Avatar
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    I love how some of you say that this couldn't/wouldn't happen yet I have posted a link to a story where it did happen.

    Don't some of you even bother to read a thread before posting?

    Some might want to do a search on youtube for "posting and you" watch and then heed the advice.

    As far as discussing this subject, I agree that it's a 1 in a million but after learning and discussing the "everyday" things what is left but the 1 in a million things to learn and discuss?

    I know trainers, world class trainers, that already have the basics down pat and have moved on to training for all those 1 in a million chance type scenario's.

    It's the smart thing to do, just as asking the question that the OP did.

    It is far more "stupid" to remain ignorant of facts and possibilities then simply asking a question.

  3. #48
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    i very nearly busted a cop's lip last year, for this very reason. walking up on someone from behind and grabbing their gun without identifying oneself is a very foolish thing to do, IMO, and is as bad as "no-knock" warrants. all it does is invite disaster.

    on the other hand, i'm partly to blame, as well; my situational awareness could have been better. i let myself relax too much, when i should have seen them coming. i learned a lesson that day.

  4. #49
    Member Array dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    If you are a legally deaf person who is legally armed and could show the court that there is no way you could have heard a command from a LEO, then I would imagine you would have a defense against reacting with force, wouldn't you? There have been some very tragic cases where LEO's attempted to apprehend hearing impaired persons without knowing they were hearing impaired with terrible results. One of the most well known took place at Galludet University in D.C.

    However, what is the solution? If a Police Officer believes you are armed and guilty of a crime (not talking about a LEO taking it upon himself/herself to attempt to disarm a legally armed individual for no reason), should he or she be required to step around in front of you, hold up their hand in a "stop" motion, and announce in a loud voice, "I am a Police Officer", while using their other hand to alternately point between their badge and shoulder patches? Is that really the position we expect LEO's to put themselves in?

    I have said it before and I will say it again. I fully support open carry where legal. I also think it ought to be legal everywhere, but it ain't. In those places where it is legal, if a LEO takes it upon himself to, without warning, attempt to disarm a legally armed citizen who is commiting no crime, that LEO should expect to suffer the consequences (especially since I hope people who open carry on a regular basis practice basic gun retention techniques). I think examples of that happening are extremely rare (and I don't think you can cite the example Treo used as being reasonably applicable). We can cite a few cases of concealed carry permit holders committing murder. We can even cite a few example of permit holders shooting a LEO's. However, those examples are very rare and it would be silly for me, as a LEO, to presume that all, most, or even many permit holders would attempt to shoot me during an official interaction.

    I think it is great that people can pose "what if" questions in this forum. I also think that constantly playing the "what if" game in your head can help prepare your for actual incidents, should they occur. I also believe, however, that you have to consider what might reasonbly happen as opposed to what is very unlikely to happen when you engage in that type of thing.

    Again, just my opinion,
    Gonzo
    Great post, all of it.

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    So we have maybe two incidents of cops grabbing guns from behind? Never mind the millions of interactions with armed citizens across the country in which there is nothing but a positive encounter.

    We might as well be wearing steel helmets to protect us against meteors falling from the sky.

    The only real difference is that you probably stand a better chance of getting hit by a meteor than you do of a cop walking behind you and grabbing a gun that you are openly carrying.

    With a thought process like that, we might ought worry about giving up our guns because someone,somewhere in the world got shot.
    Amen, and well put.

    Kind of like the techniques the Brady Bunch uses. Two or three instances and paint all gun owners with the same brush. One or two instances do not prove a point.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beachbumcook

    LEO's are not trained to "just walk up behind and unholster a person's gun."


    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    think so?

    The defense was that Jensen grabbed the defendant from behind and failed to identify himself as a police officer
    I would be willing to bet that Jensen was not trained to do what he did. He reacted, made a tactical error and is dead because of compromising his training.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  7. #52
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    training, or lack of training aside, some (but not many) LEOs can and do make bad decisions like this. thy're human, just like you and me. like i said earlier, when i got my gun grabbed, a quick turn of my head probably got me out of a quick trip to the county lockup for assaulting an officer. having a SERPA holster probably saved me, as well as the officer's lip. i felt a quick tug, and when i whipped my neck around, i saw 3 LEOs standing there. i had to explain the holster mechanism.

    when the entire ordeal was over, i made sure to tell the officer that what he did was foolish, and dangerous. he not only put himself in danger, but myself, and possibly everyone nearby.

  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    I love how some of you say that this couldn't/wouldn't happen yet I have posted a link to a story where it did happen.

    Don't some of you even bother to read a thread before posting?

    Some might want to do a search on youtube for "posting and you" watch and then heed the advice.

    As far as discussing this subject, I agree that it's a 1 in a million but after learning and discussing the "everyday" things what is left but the 1 in a million things to learn and discuss?

    I know trainers, world class trainers, that already have the basics down pat and have moved on to training for all those 1 in a million chance type scenario's.

    It's the smart thing to do, just as asking the question that the OP did.

    It is far more "stupid" to remain ignorant of facts and possibilities then simply asking a question.
    wow doug...i'm really sorry...apparently there arent that many of us who put a lot of faith in a situation that was posted on a forum as opposed to an actual news article...but in this case i digress and change the first portion of my original post to:

    "to be honest the scenario is ridiculous at best...a leo...in his right mind and considering the possible consequences... has no tactical advantage in attempting to wrestle a gun away from anyone when they could approach with firearm drawn and identify themselves....hand to hand combat is not a definate win for them and potentially could get them killed..."

    and i will reinforce my commitment to retaining my firearm with the fact that any police officer that poorly chooses to grab a gun from someones holster without properly identifying and protecting themselves deserves the beating hey are probably going to get....

    now dont confuse this with me not liking law enforcement officers...because i work closely with them every day...i just dont see it as a viable situation...he will get beaten down unitil he is identified....and i'm pretty sure the court will see it that way when an attourney gets through beating him and his carreer verbally...

    and its still a ridiculous scenario...

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    If an officer up here disarmed some one in such a way it would with with 4-5 officers, some of which would have shotguns, and it would be because you are doing something really illegal. One officer trying to take one guys gun, one on one?!?!?! I am not a big fan of fair fights. If I am taking some one on 1 on 1 I made a big tactical error.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  10. #55
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dam294 View Post
    Maybe the link in my earlier post wasn't obvious enough...

    Firearm Discussion • View topic - Well it happened

    This is very similar to the OP's question only it involves a security guard instead of a LEO.

    For the record, I post/read on georgiapacking.org fairly regularly and I believe what the poster in the link says to be the truth.
    This was also discussed here at length. The jury is still out on whether it really happened or not.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Lets say you are minding your own business and a LEO decides to walk up behind you and un-holster your gun because he plans to "detain" you. You didn't see or hear him coming... naturally you are going to bat, elbow or swing at whomever is trying to take your gun.

    Then after you turn around you realize you just popped a LEO in the mouth and busted his lip...

    How would that play out?
    Badly. Very badly.

    You don't want to know how badly...

    However, it wouldn't be the likely situation.

    You'd likely first know of the cop as he approached from cover with a drawn weapon and starts talking to you in "Da Voice Of Command" with words like "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS" or "DO NOT MOVE"

  12. #57
    Member Array dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    wow doug...i'm really sorry...apparently there arent that many of us who put a lot of faith in a situation that was posted on a forum as opposed to an actual news article...but in this case i digress and change the first portion of my original post to:

    ...snip
    You believe news articles? hahahaha, I know I know...

    I see your point and I'm glad it seems that you see my point too.

    BTW: Here's an other time a cop tried a gun grab Link

  13. #58
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    Well, I can’t say it wouldn’t happen since I was a LEO and not every LEO uses common sense. Still, I believe the chances are fairly remote. Conversely, my greatest fear with carrying is that my gun is taken from me by whatever means, and is subsequently used against me. As such, I protect (guard) my gun much in the same way as if I were with a loved one.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    training, or lack of training aside, some (but not many) LEOs can and do make bad decisions like this. thy're human, just like you and me. like i said earlier, when i got my gun grabbed, a quick turn of my head probably got me out of a quick trip to the county lockup for assaulting an officer. having a SERPA holster probably saved me, as well as the officer's lip. i felt a quick tug, and when i whipped my neck around, i saw 3 LEOs standing there. i had to explain the holster mechanism.

    when the entire ordeal was over, i made sure to tell the officer that what he did was foolish, and dangerous. he not only put himself in danger, but myself, and possibly everyone nearby.
    I have to tell you, I just sat shaking my head while I read the story of your incident. Sometimes we (LEO's) are our own worst enemies. I cannot imagine what the guy was thinking and I shudder to think how differently the situation could have turned out. Again, I cannot imagine what was in his mind at the time.

    As an Firearms Instructor with my agency, I am always amazed that some of our recruits (and even some of the experienced guys) think it is funny to sneak up behind another guy and tug on their gun in the holster. I tell them time and time again that sort of unsafe behavior is going to end up resulting in, at the least, a broken finger or wrist. At the worst, a bullet hole in their head.

    I appreciate the fact that you were using a good retention holster when open carrying. I think that is very important. It is also very important, in my opinion, for the citizen who chooses to open carry to learn and practice gun retention techniques.

    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    As an Firearms Instructor with my agency, I am always amazed that some of our recruits (and even some of the experienced guys) think it is funny to sneak up behind another guy and tug on their gun in the holster. I tell them time and time again that sort of unsafe behavior is going to end up resulting in, at the least, a broken finger or wrist. At the worst, a bullet hole in their head.
    You should punish any recruit who allows his weapon to be taken without KOing the guy who took the gun. Run them till the vomit, quit or die.

    If you do a weapon disarm on an unsuspecting person, good for you.

    If you got disarmed...oh, no...

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