Arizona OC Culture?!

Arizona OC Culture?!

This is a discussion on Arizona OC Culture?! within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm heading to AZ tomorrow, and having not spent time there, I'm wondering what the open carry climate is like. Maybe someone can comment on ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: Arizona OC Culture?!

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Minnesnowta
    Posts
    2,034

    Arizona OC Culture?!

    I'm heading to AZ tomorrow, and having not spent time there, I'm wondering what the open carry climate is like.

    Maybe someone can comment on how prevalent OC is there, as well as what to expect if open carrying.

    Thanks for your comments.
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith


  2. #2
    Member Array wildcatCWP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Never more than ten feet from a 7-11
    Posts
    100
    Where in Arizona are you heading?

    Most people conceal in Arizona, but the farther out of the cities you get, the more common open carry is.
    Tucson is very liberal but I've never had a problem carrying openly. In the cities, just dress normally and be polite, and spend lots of money in our state -- we need the revenue.

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,933
    Arizona is a Gold Star open carry state. I hear it's very OC friendly.

  4. #4
    TOF
    TOF is offline
    Member Array TOF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    342
    Some Malls have no gun signs but most places don't. If you wish to carry in an establishment serving alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises you need a CWP, must not consume and it must be concealed.

    If you enter a store and they tell you guns are not allowed just leave.

    We don't have many "Man With a Gun" calls and when they occur the individual is usualy waving it or threatening etc.

    If you plan to leave it in your car, do so in a holster or it will be considered concealed.

    Enjoy your visit.
    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    4,244
    Before AZ started issuing CCW's, open carry was much more prevalent. Still see some in Phoenix occasionally. While legal, I'd recommend staying off Mill Avenue in downtown Tempe while OC. The whole area is virtually one big entertainment center and you'd draw attention, plus there are very few places you could enter. Hopefully this rain will end so you can have fun in the sun!
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  6. #6
    Member Array mrog71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    29
    I live in NW Phoenix. I've never OC'd here - I've always CC'd, but I see people OC'ing on a fairly regular basis. You'll always get some stares from some people, but I've never heard of anyone being hassled for OC. Like one of the other posters mentioned, I'd stay away from Mill ave. That's where ASU is. Just look for the No Guns signs on stores as well.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    1,414
    You will have few problems OCing in AZ. Signs are a request of the operator, but if you see it your best bet is just to decide not to enter.

    If you have a CCW (and AZ recognizes all other states' permits) you can conceal a weapon in an establishment that serves alcohol provided it is concealed, they do not have a sign next to their liquor license banning possession on the premises, AND YOU DO NOT CONSUME ALCOHOL.

    I don't OC often, but when I do I have seldom encountered any issues whatsoever.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arapahoe County CO
    Posts
    1,807
    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    If you plan to leave it in your car, do so in a holster or it will be considered concealed.
    If I understand your statement, (a) a pistol in a box under a coat in a vehicle is concealed and (b) a holstered pistol under the same coat is not concealed. Is case (a) illegal and (b) legal?

  9. #9
    Member Array wildcatCWP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Never more than ten feet from a 7-11
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    If I understand your statement, (a) a pistol in a box under a coat in a vehicle is concealed and (b) a holstered pistol under the same coat is not concealed. Is case (a) illegal and (b) legal?
    This is complicated by case law (State v. Adams). Technically, any weapon in a vehicle that is not ordinarily observable from the outside is concealed, so you must have a permit if it is in any way blocked from view, whether in a holster or not (clear as mud, no?) My CWP instructor (confirmed by a LEO who was also in attendance) recommended that if one does not have a permit, the handgun should be on the dashboard to prevent any accidental law-breaking.

    I'm assuming that the original poster has a valid MN permit (since he needs one to carry there) and thus would be in the clear here in AZ regarding weapons in vehicles, so it doesn't matter anyway,

  10. #10
    Member Array ChuckAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    45
    Lived in AZ my entire life.. Besides the range and gun shows. I have seen less than a handful of people OC. Most of us just conceal. Too many people from out of town especially NY and CA. I have only open carried a few times, most wont care but you get an occasional person who just locks eyes with your gun and wont quit. Then you get the retarded "You cant do that or is that legal". I would prefer to avoid talking to people when I am out and about trying to get stuff done.

  11. #11
    Member Array TapRackBang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    432
    This is complicated by case law (State v. Adams). Technically, any weapon in a vehicle that is not ordinarily observable from the outside is concealed, so you must have a permit if it is in any way blocked from view, whether in a holster or not
    Actually not true,

    Here is the law,

    13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions

    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

    1. Carrying a deadly weapon without a permit pursuant to section 13-3112 except a pocket knife concealed on his person; or

    2. Carrying a deadly weapon without a permit pursuant to section 13-3112 concealed within immediate control of any person in or on a means of transportation; or

    Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

    hope it helps
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  12. #12
    Member Array wildcatCWP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Never more than ten feet from a 7-11
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by TapRackBang View Post
    Actually not true...
    Two words:

    CASE LAW

    Excerpt from State v. Adams No.1 CA-CR 95-0809.
    Court of Appeals of Arizona, Division 1, Department A.
    May 29, 1997.

    Appellant was convicted of violating A.R.S. § 13-3102(A)(2), which provides in part:
    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
    ….
    2. Carrying a deadly weapon without a permit pursuant to § 13-3112 concealed within immediate control of
    any person in or on a means of transportation.

    The statute does not define "concealed," nor have our courts done so to date.
    [1] Officer Cooper found Appellant's Ruger semi-automatic weapon lodged between the passenger seat and door. Officer Cooper testified that he did not see the firearm until he opened the car door; the only way he could
    have seen the weapon with the door closed was to look "straight down" after putting his entire head through the window. Taking this testimony as an acknowledgment that the weapon, though obscure, was visible from a
    certain angle, Appellant argues that the trial court should have directed a verdict that the weapon was not concealed. We disagree.

    We begin with the standard definitions. According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary 469 (1966), "conceal" means "to prevent disclosure or recognition of' or "to place out of sight." According to State v. Pudman,
    "The common definition of the word 'conceal' is 'to hide or withdraw from observation; to cover or keep from sight.''' 65 Ariz. 197, 211, 177 P.2d 376, 386 (1946) (quoting People v. McGinnis, 55 Cal. App.2d 931, 132 P.2d
    30, 32 (1942)). The problem with such definitions is that they just restate the question: Was this weapon concealed, hidden from observation, or placed out of sight when it could have been seen from a certain angle by one who undertook to see it?

    To answer this question, it helps to consider the purpose of A.R.S. § 13-3102(A). We have held that - the statute is intended to " 'protect[] the public by preventing an individual from having on hand a deadly weapon of which the
    public is unaware, and which an individual may use in a sudden heat of passion.' "State v. Moerman, 182 Ariz.255, 261,895 P.2d 1018, 1024 (App. 1994) (quoting Dano v. Collins, 166 Ariz. 322, 324, 802 P.2d 1021, 1023 (App.1990)). For that purpose, this weapon was concealed, as there was nothing about its location that put others on notice of its presence.

    Other courts have held that a concealed weapon need not be completely hidden or invisible. See, e.g., Ensor v. State, 403 So.2d 349,354 (Fla.1981); State v. Gwinn, 390 A.2d 479, 482 (Me. 1978); State v. Walls, 190 Wis.2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765, 767-68 (App. 1994). Most courts hold that a weapon is concealed if it is hidden from the "ordinary observation" or the "ordinary sight" of another person. United States v. Flum. 518 F.2d 39, 45 (8th Cir.l975); McKee v. State, 488 P.2d 1039, 1042 (Alaska 1971); Ensor, 403 So.2d at 353-54.

    In Walls, the Wisconsin Court of Appeals held that a weapon in the defendant's car was concealed because: (1) it
    was within the defendant's reach; (2) the defendant knew it was there; and (3) the weapon was "indiscernible from the ordinary observation of a person located outside and within the immediate vicinity of the vehicle."
    526 N.W.2d
    at 767. The court added:

    What is ordinary observation in such cases cannot well be defined so as to meet all the varying conditions under which weapons may be carried ... but it may be said generally that the meaning is that the weapon must be open to the ordinary observation of persons who may come in contact in the usual and ordinary associations of life with one who carries a weapon.... If parties
    approaching a [person), carrying a weapon[,]... or passing [the person] on the streets or highways, or thrown with [the person] in ordinary social contact, can see the weapon without inspection or examination for that purpose, but from ordinary observation, then such weapon is not concealed ... within the meaning of the statute. Id. at 767 n. 3 (quoting Smith v. State, 96 Ala. 66, 11 So. 71 (1892»); see also State v. Bowman, 79 Ohio App.3d 407, 607 N.E.2d 516, 520 (1992); State v. Coker, 15 Ohio App.3d 97, 472 N.E.2d 747,749 (1984).

    In Ensor, the Florida Supreme Court considered a partially hidden handgun found by police on a vehicle floorboard at a roadside stop. 403 So.2d 349. The court rejected the assertion that the weapon was subject to
    "ordinary observation" by one who scanned the floorboard: Ordinary observation by a person other than a police officer does not generally include the
    floorboard of a vehicle, whether or not the weapon is wholly or partially visible.... [A] weapon's possible visibility from a point outside the vehicle may not, as a matter of law, preclude the weapon from being a concealed weapon under [the statute].... In all instances, common sense must prevail. The critical question turns on whether an individual, standing near a person with a firearm
    ... may by ordinary observation know the questioned object to be a firearm. The ultimate decision must rest upon the trier of fact under the circumstances of each case.
    Id. at 354--55 (emphasis added); accord McGraw v. State, 404 So.2d 817, 819 (Fla. App.1981); cf State v. Cavin,
    555 S.W.2d 653, 654 (Mo.App.1977) ("[Al weapon is not concealed simply because it is not discernible from a
    single vantage point if it is clearly discernible from other positions."); State v. Jordan, 793 S.W.2d 905, 906 (Mo.App.1990).

    Other courts have focused on the nature and degree of observation, excluding from the scope of "ordinary observation" searches that are "unusually careful, thorough or detailed," such as those of a trained, alert investigating officer. State v. Pettit 20 Ohio App.2d 170, 252 N.E.2d 325, 328 (1969); State v. Gregory, 90 Ohio App.3d 124, 628 N.E.2d 86, 90 (1993).

    We are satisfied after surveying such case law that the standard of "ordinary observation," when applied with common sense, will serve to determine whether a weapon is concealed. Applying that standard to this case, we find sufficient evidence to support conviction.

    --------------------------------------------

    In other words, if you can't see it from outside the vehicle, it's concealed. The Courts of the State of Arizona have spoken on this and they, not the legislature, have defined what is and is not concealed. Anyone who carries in a vehicle without a CWP acts at their own peril.

  13. #13
    Member Array TapRackBang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    432
    Good case law..however it does not mention the fact that the weapon was encased in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage. So I would sumise that the weapon was not in a holster and therefore was concealed and unlawful.

    I don't want to debate the that fact that a weapon cecealed in a vehicle is a violation..however the statute is clear that if the weapon is in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage the statute says it shall not apply.

    A judge can interpet the statute but this one is pretty clear & I must say that I have been a Arizona Police Officer since 1982 and its been that way as long as I can remember.


    Here is the text from the AZ CCW instructors manual.

    GENERALLY, MISCONDUCT INVOLVING WEAPONS (ARS 133102.
    A.1 and A.2) DOES NOT APPLY TO:
    · A deadly weapon which is immediately accessible and carried openly by a means that makes it obvious to casual observers the
    person is carrying a deadly weapon ("open carry")
    · A person in his home, on his business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person
    · Within a means of transportation, a deadly weapon that is not immediately accessible or if it is clearly visible to casual observersor if it is carried in a container that makes it obvious the person is transporting a deadly weapon

    and here is the part that explans the accessible part.

    Unless you have a CCW permit, it is unlawful to carry a
    deadly weapon concealed within your immediate control in or on a
    means of transportation (A.R.S. § 13-3102.A.2). When
    transporting a firearm in or on a means of transportation without a
    CCW permit, the firearm must be wholly or partially visible, or in a
    case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage within a storage
    compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment. (A.R.S. §
    13-3102.F).

    However I also found this reference, but I have not read the case law. This mentions a admendment 14 added to the law in 2006 but reading the statue I can't find the amendment 14. and the statue still reads as earlier posted.

    In view of the Moerman, Adams and McDermott
    cases, discussed above, and the subsequent 2006 amendment14 to
    the statute, if a gun is “readily accessible” and not readily
    observable while in its case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage,
    then the case, etc., containing the gun would have to be either (1)
    open to view and boldly labeled to put persons on notice that it
    contains a gun, or (2) stored within a storage compartment, map
    pocket, trunk or glove compartment.

    So based on the last paragraph it would appear that your correct. I think..
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  14. #14
    Member Array wildcatCWP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Never more than ten feet from a 7-11
    Posts
    100
    The summary on page one of the court decision says:

    "Weapon found between passenger seat and door of vehicle in which defendant was passenger was "concealed," as required to support conviction for misconduct involving weapons, even if weapon was visible from certain angle outside vehicle; weapon was hidden from "ordinary observation" or "ordinary sight" of persons outside vehicle."

    A.R.S. § 13-3102, subd. A, par. 2.

    The case law hinges on 'ordinary observation' from outside a vehicle. So if I'm standing in front of the driver's side door of your truck and you are carrying OWB on your right side, then it is hidden from 'ordinary observation' and therefore concealed. To not be considered concealed, it has to be completely visible from every angle outside the vehicle (in other words, on the dashboard), it seems. Since the court has defined 'concealed' and the legislature hasn't correct or tried to define it themselves, even the stuff in the statutes about glove compartments, holsters, cases, map pockets, etc. is up in the air.

    I'd like to see AZ take a cue from NM and pass an extended domain law so that anyone who is legally allowed to possess a handgun at home can do so in a vehicle without worry of accidentally 'concealing.'

    Edit: Just to make it clear, Arizona honors the permits of all states (except those that do not issue them, of course) so if you have one the above hand-wringing does not apply to you.
    Last edited by wildcatCWP; March 8th, 2010 at 11:22 PM.

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arapahoe County CO
    Posts
    1,807
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatCWP View Post
    I'd like to see AZ take a cue from NM and pass an extended domain law so that anyone who is legally allowed to possess a handgun at home can do so in a vehicle without worry of accidentally 'concealing.'
    I concur. If I refer to a state as "fully supporting open carry", it must permit unlicensed carry of loaded handguns in vehicles. We have that here, but Colorado is still not a true open carry state because Denver, after a court battle with the state, won the right to keep its OC ban which is an exception to Colorado's state pre-emption of local firearms laws.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. NRA Alert- Arizona Arizona Senator Attempting to Water Down Important Pro-Gun Bill!
    By mi2az in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: June 24th, 2009, 08:49 PM
  2. Arizona Bill HB2474 (heard from Steve Montenegro Member, Arizona House of Representa
    By mi2az in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 12th, 2009, 06:05 PM
  3. Hawaiin Gun Culture?
    By buckeye .45 in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 22nd, 2007, 03:27 PM
  4. The culture of sheep.
    By havegunjoe in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: May 24th, 2007, 06:58 PM
  5. +1 for the gun culture
    By joe/OH in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: April 16th, 2006, 10:38 PM

Search tags for this page

is it culturally acceptable to open carry in az

Click on a term to search for related topics.