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Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think?

12K views 137 replies 51 participants last post by  Jcabin 
#1 ·
ksl.com - Police confront student carrying gun on UVU campus
Police confront student carrying gun on UVU campus
March 8th, 2010 @ 6:54pm

OREM -- A student confronted by police for openly carrying a gun at Utah Valley University says he's within his rights. Now advocates on both sides say his story points to a problem in Utah law.

The student posted on YouTube the confrontation he had with officers after they responded to a report of a man with a gun.

Steven Gunn of the Utah Gun Violence Prevention Center says it points to a problematic gap in Utah law that has not been addressed.

"I can't imagine what the reaction might be, well actually I can," he says, "of a student walking along the campus and seeing another student carrying a shotgun."

Gunn says Utah's gun laws are vague and don't clearly state whether open carry is legal. He says a bill clarifying that issue needs to be drafted.

The student told KSL he was not trying to make a fuss. He agreed to keep his gun concealed for now, but he doesn't feel he should have to.
From what i understand he DOES have the right to do it, but maybe not the best idea.

In the video it seems he was trying to argue and "win" a debate instead of just doing what the officer said and then later making a call to someone who could inform the campus officers for any future troubles.

What do you guys think?

YouTube - Utah Valley University Cops, Open Carry Part 1
 
#2 ·
If OC is legal....why not? You can't control how other people "feel".....education is key...
 
#13 · (Edited)
Education by 911, can save LEO resources and not divert officers to no violations.

Somewhere around here I have a script that a local PD wrote for their 911 operator, re: the Virginia Tuck. I try to find it and post it.

It went something like this:

REPORT OF A GUN IN A BAR

Q: You say there is a man/woman in a bar with a gun, is that right?

Q: What is he/she doing with it? (waving, threatening, pointing, shooting = dispatch).

Q: Does he/she have it out of the holster, in their hand waving, threatening, pointing, shooting ? (A: Yes = dispatch).

Q: Has he/she made any threatening remarks to you or to anyone else? (A: Yes = dispatch).

Q: Does he/she appear to be intoxicated? (A: Yes = dispatch).

Q: Is the gun concealed and you happened to get a glance at it or is it holstered in plain sight? (A: Concealed = dispatch).

Q: Are you the owner or an employee of the restaurant and have you asked the patron to leave, or is the business conspicuously posted? (A: Yes = dispatch).

Otherwise: (Thank the caller for their concern, advise caller that a customer is within his/her rights to open carry a gun in that situation and to please call back if the man/women breaks the law by waving, threatening, pointing, shooting, or getting intoxicated, etc.)

IMHO -- they need something like that on all campuses where carry is legal.
 
#5 ·
While he may be within his right, there is no point in arguing. It looks as though the cop "understands" the law but is advising him that it is a better choice to conceal. I do agree that concealing is a better option if it will avoid drawing unnecessary attention my way.
 
#14 ·
I also agree with the above. The officer has given the student every avenue, but he 9the student) is pushing the fact he wants to O/C i don't have any problem with the O/C but the student has been asked (in a VERY respectful manner) to just conceal the handgun for the time being, until a later date. The student is pushing his point and he's being asked to not O/C or he's going to get cited. Personally, if he has a CCW permit, just hide it and not get cited for it. Why bust the officers eggs at this point. Live to fight it another day, and not become a problem to the officers.
 
#10 ·
This is likely not a going to be a popular opinion but here goes:
Obviously this is one of the few campuses that permits concealed carry. Even in very pro-gun states permitting firearms on campus is not widely accepted. The folks that go to this school should feel fortunate that they have the option to be armed even if it means the firearm must remain concealed. I agree with the cop, there is a very good chance that running around campus with an exposed firearm is all the reason the other side needs to band together and make the possession of any firearm, in any manner illegal, on the campus.

If I was a student there and quietly carried concealed every day I would be upset with this guy for putting my ability to protect myself at risk.
I just want to protect myself and family, I'm not interested in changing anyone's opinion about guns or making a statement.
 
#15 ·
I attended UVU a few years ago when it was still UVSC. I live only 15 minutes from the campus.

As I watched this on the local news last night, I was disappointed with how the LEO handled the situation. No matter this LEOs opinion concearning OC on campus, it is legal with a valid permit.
 
#20 ·
Threatened with being cited, if he continued to do what was legal? By what authority?


And yes, a DC charge would be easy to make stick if that is what they wanted to do.
What is a "DC charge"? (EDIT: Ah. Disorderly conduct.)
 
#21 ·
I agree with your observation about his conduct; he was not disorderly.

However, did his actions raise alarm or offense with the public at large? That is the sole question that needs answered to make a dc case. I think if one wanted too, it could be done very easily.
I'm not saying that it is right, but I am saying that it could be done.
 
#22 ·
I am torn on both side of this. I do agree that he should be able to open carry in a perfect world but I think to OC right now is just to much to quick. Education is the key and the people need to be educated first, not shocked in to it. On the same point concealed is concealed. No harm no foul. It does seem better to CC over OC but rights are rights. As much as I like my rights and do think open carry has it's place it is of my opinion that if everybody did open carry then the people would become desensitized to guns and the bad guys would have an easier time getting around. Of course OC might deter bad guys to do harm also knowing so many others are armed. Like I said, it is a 50- 50 thing.
 
#23 ·
The LEO has threatened him with a "Disruption of School Activities" citation if he is caught OC'ing again.

I hope he does take this to court. In current Utah law he is well within his rights.

I've seen several posts on local boards over the last few months where local CCW and OC'ers alike talk about one day storming a campus with guns on their hips.. Maybe that time is shortly approaching just to make the point that it is legal, and the LEO has no authority to decide which carry method is employed.

Personally, I prefer CC to OC... But i'm not sure I can turn my back on the principal behind this issue.
 
#24 ·
How many days, months or years must pass after a law is officially a law before it can be enforced?

I expect the answer is half a second or something close for those laws that carry penalties.

There should be no difference regarding laws or changes in laws that remove penalties or especially when there is no law prohibiting an action.

I hope the kid won his case.
 
#26 · (Edited)
This is one of those situations whereboth sides are making good points. The cop wasn't a jerk about it and the OC'r was (and he stated so) carrying to make a point. Dumb as it sounds I would have complied W/ the Officer's request and concealed the gun
 
#27 ·
Here you go....

Chief Brewer,

My name is Nicholas Moyes and I am a student at UVU.
On Friday March 5, 2010 at around 11:40 AM, I was detained by two of your officers in the Sorenson Student Center, in front of the UVUSA offices...
Before I pursue this any further, please know that I want to give your department every opportunity to rectify this situation. I have posted my account of what occurred on this website and on YouTube:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7775&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Please read through the entire thread, because I gave more details in later posts.
I filed a GRAMA request with your department this afternoon regarding this incident. I am not trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill here, I just want to feel satisfied that all of your officers are educated regarding firearm carrying laws in the State of Utah and that they are taught how to approach the people that exercise those rights, legally, on UVU campus.
KSL has contacted me regarding this issue but before I give an interview, I want to give you a chance to respond to me without involving the press. Again, I do not want to make this a big deal, and would prefer not to blow this out of proportion.
However, I would like to file a formal complaint(s) against the officers involved, please let me know what the proper course of action is to do so.

Thank you for your time,

Nicholas Moyes
ph. #
moyes.nick at gmail.com"

His response:

brewerjc@uvu.edu
"The open carrying of firearms on our campus, even by concealed permit holders, is a violation of UVU policy unless I give written approval for such. I have given no such approval either to you or anyone else on this campus. If you are found to be openly carrying a firearm on this campus again you may be subject to arrest and confiscation of your firearm as evidence of the violation as detailed in Utah Revised Statute 76-8-710, Disruption of School Activities. Additionally you may be subject to possible UVU administrative sanctions for policy violation. I advise that you no longer carry your firearm openly." -Chief Brewer
 
#29 ·
Also, here is the post to the victim's thread on a local board.

Well, after OCin' for a year and a half at UVU (CC for three years), MWAG call went in to campus police...

I had just left a planning meeting with UVU student government for the upcoming Bob Bennett vs. Everyone else, Senatorial debate that our club is hosting, (April 2nd 12:00 @ UVU--shameless plug) when I took a ladder from the "Publicity Room" to adjust some of our club's banners that hang in the hallways. I was 15 feet from returning to the UVUSA offices when a VERY anxious cop approached me and very abruptly asked, "Can I see some I.D.?" So, not knowing whether I was required to show him I.D. or not while on campus, I complied and handed him my UVU ID and my CFP (I didn't think he was stopping me for carrying a ladder lol), then he said "No, I want your drivers license," and handed me back my UVU ID but he held on to my CFP. He then asked me why I had a gun on me and I said, "As a safety precaution, just like wearing my seatbelt." He then said, "No, why do you have it at school???" (meanwhile I'm holding a 10 foot ladder, wearing a heavy backpack and 2 FACULTY members walk by, say "hi" to me and two friends as well, ALL WHILE THIS COP IS BEHAVING LIKE HE IS ON THE VERGE OF TAZING ME!)

[It sucked because I was looking so incredibly guilty standing there in the hallway at the exact spot where all these people on campus whom I have told over and over again that OC is legal (with a CFP) and with whom I have built relationships of trust with about OCing, were seeing me be detained right where I interact with all of them on nearly a daily basis. GRRRR all that trust got thrown out the window today ]

Back on point: I told the cop, politely, that the reason I have a gun at school is because I am within my legal right to do so and because a majority of mass shootings have occurred on college campuses--and I don't want to be a victim. At this point, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, the cop was acting like he was just WAITING for me to make a wrong move or say something flippant so he would have an excuse to tackle me to the ground. I told him, AT LEAST THREE TIMES that it is completely legal for me to OC on UVU's campus because I have a CFP. He said he was going to give me a citation for disorderly conduct because they got a MWAG call and that I was absolutely wrong about OC on campus. At this point I started to get freaked out because the officer wasn't even allowing me to explain or use any logic, and his emotions were escalating VERY RAPIDLY. Thank goodness another officer arrived, who was much more level headed (but still didn't understand the law). Realizing that this wasn't going to be a 30 second stop, I remembered from reading previous threads on UCC.com that I should record any encounters with police. So I pulled out my iPhone, as casually as I could, and pressed record.

I apologize for the jumpiness at points in the video, I couldn't see if I was getting the officer's "in the shot" or not, and you might need to turn up the volume full blast to hear it all, I accidentally covered up the mic at times and I didn't get a shot of the first officer (the one that scared the crap out of me) but you can hear him speak up about charging me with disorderly conduct AND trespassing later on in the clip.

Now, I know that by posting this I am subjecting myself to public scorn and ridicule. I know there will be comments like, "Well, if it had been me, I would have said this..." and "You should have said this and this..." Please understand that I am a college student, nothing more, and that by the time I pressed record I was pretty shaken up by the first officer.
Looking back and listening to the clip I can think of at least a dozen different things that I wish I had said too...
Also understand, that when I did start recording, I was trying to deescalate a very tense situation that the previous officer had built up, and simply get the second officer to do most of the talking so I could have him put all of his opinions on the record, because the LAW was clearly no longer being discussed.
I know there are a lot of you on this forum who, when you hear some of the officers' comments, are going to pull your hair out...The recording starts with the second officer telling me that I'm giving OC "a bad name."

Before I post these videos, can I get in any kind of trouble for posting them???

Edit: Here are the links
YouTube - Utah Valley University Cops, Open Carry Part 1
YouTube - Utah Valley University Cops, Open Carry Part 2
 
#30 ·
I have no problems myself with OC and have done that on occasion... the only thing is that it really does no good to argue with cops who think they're right!

This guy OBVIOUSLY knew more than the cop and showed it in the video, but the cop wasn't going to give in to some kid, or really probably anybody, because some cops think they're always right just because they're cops.

(Case in point - you don't have to ID yourself as a CWP holder anymore during a traffic stop here in Utah, but if you don't, many cops will make a big deal out of it and act like they can cite you for it. It just happened to my bro in law who wasn't carrying at the time, I still let them know anyway.)

The best thing to do would be to state the law very clearly as he did in the beginning, if the cop is going to hold to his ground blindly like he did, then the best thing would be to just comply and put it under his shirt for the day, get this officers name, and contact those who ACTUALLY KNOW the law and who are his superiors and let them know what happened and ask that they please educate their officers.

Then the next day, go back to carrying OC and keep the superior who knows the laws' name and number in your phone in case you run into any trouble again.

If your rights are idiotically being violated by cops, arguing with those same idiot cops aren't going to get you very far! Go to someone who will actually hear you out and who knows the laws.
 
#31 ·
whoa! so he DID talk to those who are in authority as superiors but STILL got shut down?!????!!!!?
brewerjc@uvu.edu
"The open carrying of firearms on our campus, even by concealed permit holders, is a violation of UVU policy unless I give written approval for such. I have given no such approval either to you or anyone else on this campus. If you are found to be openly carrying a firearm on this campus again you may be subject to arrest and confiscation of your firearm as evidence of the violation as detailed in Utah Revised Statute 76-8-710, Disruption of School Activities. Additionally you may be subject to possible UVU administrative sanctions for policy violation. I advise that you no longer carry your firearm openly." -Chief Brewer
Well in that case i hope that he contacts his legislature friends and they educate this Chief Brewer. Stupid school policy at a state school DOES NOT override state law, even if this chief seems to think it does!!!
 
#32 ·
The Real Rub

Ah, the real rub for a student:

"The open carrying of firearms on our campus, even by concealed permit holders, is a violation of UVU policy....Additionally you may be subject to possible UVU administrative sanctions for policy violation. I advise that you no longer carry your firearm openly." -Chief Brewer"
Maybe time for a visit from non-students or employees, if your State law preemption law is clearly written.
 
#33 ·
"The open carrying of firearms on our campus, even by concealed permit holders, is a violation of UVU policy....Additionally you may be subject to possible UVU administrative sanctions for policy violation. I advise that you no longer carry your firearm openly." -Chief Brewer"
I'd like to see the policy. If it is school policy that OC isn't permitted then then Mr. Moyes is out of gas
 
#35 ·
GUNS IN SCHOOLS: UVU police confront student wearing holstered gun to school - KSTU

Video interview with the student. I think he did a great job and the reporter said that they called BCI and the dept of safety and both said student was within his rights to OC on campus!

[/ 53B-3-103. Power of board to adopt rules and enact regulations.
(1) The board may enact regulations governing the conduct of university and college students, faculty, and employees.
(2) (a) The board may:
(i) enact and authorize higher education institutions to enact traffic, parking, and related regulations governing all individuals on campuses and other facilities owned or controlled by the institutions or the board; and
(ii) acknowledging that the Legislature has the authority to regulate, by law, firearms at higher education institutions:
(A) authorize higher education institutions to establish no more than one secure area at each institution as a hearing room as prescribed in Section 76-8-311.1, but not otherwise restrict the lawful possession or carrying of firearms
; and
(B) authorize a higher education institution to make a rule that allows a resident of a dormitory located at the institution to request only roommates who are not licensed to carry a concealed firearm under Section 53-5-704 or 53-5-705.
 
#37 ·
It was obvious the officer grasped what the kid was trying to say. The officer was simply trying to get the point across that it probably wasn't a good idea for a number of reasons. OC itself might not be illegal in Utah, but if the school wants him removed for it, they have that right... don't they?

I guess my point is that there is other laws and perceptions that do matter when it comes to OC; not just the statutes that specifically deal with carrying. The law and application of it is much more complicated than most people understand.
 
#38 ·
OC'ing is legal in Utah w/out a CCP so long as it is not loaded (Utah law a 'loaded' firearm is a firearm with a round in the chamber), which means that a loaded mag and no chambered round is 'unloaded'. UT law prohibits firearms on or near school zones unless you are a CCP holder.. Combine the two now that you have a CCP - you can now OC a loaded firearm, because it is not prohibited.
 
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