Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think?

This is a discussion on Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CLASS3NH I also agree with the above. The officer has given the student every avenue, but he 9the student) is pushing the ...

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Thread: Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    I also agree with the above. The officer has given the student every avenue, but he 9the student) is pushing the fact he wants to O/C i don't have any problem with the O/C but the student has been asked (in a VERY respectful manner) to just conceal the handgun for the time being, until a later date. The student is pushing his point and he's being asked to not O/C or he's going to get cited. Personally, if he has a CCW permit, just hide it and not get cited for it. Why bust the officers eggs at this point. Live to fight it another day, and not become a problem to the officers.
    The problem with this is that even if a LEO askes you to CC and not OC, there is no law stating that OC is illegal. whether or not the LEO likes it, he is within his rights to OC.

    I really wonder what they would try to charge him with, he is not breaking any laws.

    EDIT:

    I guess they were threatening a disorderly conduct charge, IMO, he would beat that in court if he chose to fight it.
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  3. #17
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    I know this is a shocker, but I agree with the cop 100%. And yes, a DC charge would be easy to make stick if that is what they wanted to do.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #18
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    We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, there was NOTHING disorderly about his conduct.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    ....
    The student is pushing his point and he's being asked to not O/C or he's going to get cited. Personally, if he has a CCW permit, just hide it and not get cited for it....
    Are we a country of "The Rule of Law" or a "Country of of the Rule on Man"? The Law says, "This is right." The man says, "This is my opinion." Which is controlling the situation? The Law? The opinion?

    A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost. To be sure, each must decide if this hill is worth dieing for. But make no mistake, we are in a struggle to win back our rights and freedom -- or maybe just a struggle to keep the rights and freedom, which we still have.

    Ah, the ironic value of "peace for our time."

    "My good friends, this is the second time in our history that there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time [emphasis added]. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. And now I recommend you to go home and sleep quietly in your beds." -- 30 September 1938 by British prime minister Neville Chamberlain in his speech concerning the Munich Agreement.

    Or:

    "When the Nazis arrested the Communists,
    I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist.
    When they locked up the Social Democrats,
    I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
    When they arrested the trade unionists,
    I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
    When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest."

    Martin Niemöller (1892—1984), Protestant pastor and social activist


    **************
    Disclaimer: I have CC on College Campuses to avoid the hassle -- especially when attending events where me being hassled would have created hardship, logistical problems, etc for others with me and when I thought it was the best tactic for the event. OTOH, I do OC on campus to help educate the staff & students that it is legal -- to help them get over their unreasonable fear and offset the myth that the campus is completely a "Unarmed Victim Zone"
    Last edited by DaveH; March 9th, 2010 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Added disclaimer
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  6. #20
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    Threatened with being cited, if he continued to do what was legal? By what authority?


    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    And yes, a DC charge would be easy to make stick if that is what they wanted to do.
    What is a "DC charge"? (EDIT: Ah. Disorderly conduct.)
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, there was NOTHING disorderly about his conduct.
    I agree with your observation about his conduct; he was not disorderly.

    However, did his actions raise alarm or offense with the public at large? That is the sole question that needs answered to make a dc case. I think if one wanted too, it could be done very easily.
    I'm not saying that it is right, but I am saying that it could be done.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #22
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    I am torn on both side of this. I do agree that he should be able to open carry in a perfect world but I think to OC right now is just to much to quick. Education is the key and the people need to be educated first, not shocked in to it. On the same point concealed is concealed. No harm no foul. It does seem better to CC over OC but rights are rights. As much as I like my rights and do think open carry has it's place it is of my opinion that if everybody did open carry then the people would become desensitized to guns and the bad guys would have an easier time getting around. Of course OC might deter bad guys to do harm also knowing so many others are armed. Like I said, it is a 50- 50 thing.

  9. #23
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    The LEO has threatened him with a "Disruption of School Activities" citation if he is caught OC'ing again.

    I hope he does take this to court. In current Utah law he is well within his rights.

    I've seen several posts on local boards over the last few months where local CCW and OC'ers alike talk about one day storming a campus with guns on their hips.. Maybe that time is shortly approaching just to make the point that it is legal, and the LEO has no authority to decide which carry method is employed.

    Personally, I prefer CC to OC... But i'm not sure I can turn my back on the principal behind this issue.
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  10. #24
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    How many days, months or years must pass after a law is officially a law before it can be enforced?

    I expect the answer is half a second or something close for those laws that carry penalties.

    There should be no difference regarding laws or changes in laws that remove penalties or especially when there is no law prohibiting an action.

    I hope the kid won his case.
    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." - Thomas Jefferson

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    However, did his actions raise alarm or offense with the public at large? That is the sole question that needs answered to make a dc case.
    Interesting!

    Is there a "reasonable person" element in Ohio Law and/or court cases?

    Here in Virginia, in both statute and case law, we have a fair amount of the following scattered through various statutes & cases decisions:

    "...in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another...."

    "...would cause a reasonable person to...."

    "...in a manner such that a reasonable person may believe...."

    "...was placed in reasonable fear of death, criminal sexual assault, or bodily injury to himself or to a minor child...."

    "...shall be conclusively deemed to have acted with reasonable...."

    "... reasonable under the circumstances...."

    Were all but a few folk at the site going about their business w/o "raising alarm" would that have any weight in an Ohio court? If only one Anti "raised alarm" while everyone else was OK, would it carry weight?
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  12. #26
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    This is one of those situations whereboth sides are making good points. The cop wasn't a jerk about it and the OC'r was (and he stated so) carrying to make a point. Dumb as it sounds I would have complied W/ the Officer's request and concealed the gun
    Last edited by Treo; March 9th, 2010 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Changed language

  13. #27
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    Here you go....

    Chief Brewer,

    My name is Nicholas Moyes and I am a student at UVU.
    On Friday March 5, 2010 at around 11:40 AM, I was detained by two of your officers in the Sorenson Student Center, in front of the UVUSA offices...
    Before I pursue this any further, please know that I want to give your department every opportunity to rectify this situation. I have posted my account of what occurred on this website and on YouTube:
    viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7775&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
    Please read through the entire thread, because I gave more details in later posts.
    I filed a GRAMA request with your department this afternoon regarding this incident. I am not trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill here, I just want to feel satisfied that all of your officers are educated regarding firearm carrying laws in the State of Utah and that they are taught how to approach the people that exercise those rights, legally, on UVU campus.
    KSL has contacted me regarding this issue but before I give an interview, I want to give you a chance to respond to me without involving the press. Again, I do not want to make this a big deal, and would prefer not to blow this out of proportion.
    However, I would like to file a formal complaint(s) against the officers involved, please let me know what the proper course of action is to do so.

    Thank you for your time,

    Nicholas Moyes
    ph. #
    moyes.nick at gmail.com"

    His response:

    brewerjc@uvu.edu
    "The open carrying of firearms on our campus, even by concealed permit holders, is a violation of UVU policy unless I give written approval for such. I have given no such approval either to you or anyone else on this campus. If you are found to be openly carrying a firearm on this campus again you may be subject to arrest and confiscation of your firearm as evidence of the violation as detailed in Utah Revised Statute 76-8-710, Disruption of School Activities. Additionally you may be subject to possible UVU administrative sanctions for policy violation. I advise that you no longer carry your firearm openly." -Chief Brewer
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I agree with your observation about his conduct; he was not disorderly.

    However, did his actions raise alarm or offense with the public at large? That is the sole question that needs answered to make a dc case. I think if one wanted too, it could be done very easily.
    I'm not saying that it is right, but I am saying that it could be done.
    And yet numerous state Attorney Generals have stated that mere open carry does not constitute DC...(The first to come to mind, since I read it most recently, is Wisconsin)
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

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  15. #29
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    Also, here is the post to the victim's thread on a local board.

    Well, after OCin' for a year and a half at UVU (CC for three years), MWAG call went in to campus police...

    I had just left a planning meeting with UVU student government for the upcoming Bob Bennett vs. Everyone else, Senatorial debate that our club is hosting, (April 2nd 12:00 @ UVU--shameless plug) when I took a ladder from the "Publicity Room" to adjust some of our club's banners that hang in the hallways. I was 15 feet from returning to the UVUSA offices when a VERY anxious cop approached me and very abruptly asked, "Can I see some I.D.?" So, not knowing whether I was required to show him I.D. or not while on campus, I complied and handed him my UVU ID and my CFP (I didn't think he was stopping me for carrying a ladder lol), then he said "No, I want your drivers license," and handed me back my UVU ID but he held on to my CFP. He then asked me why I had a gun on me and I said, "As a safety precaution, just like wearing my seatbelt." He then said, "No, why do you have it at school???" (meanwhile I'm holding a 10 foot ladder, wearing a heavy backpack and 2 FACULTY members walk by, say "hi" to me and two friends as well, ALL WHILE THIS COP IS BEHAVING LIKE HE IS ON THE VERGE OF TAZING ME!)

    [It sucked because I was looking so incredibly guilty standing there in the hallway at the exact spot where all these people on campus whom I have told over and over again that OC is legal (with a CFP) and with whom I have built relationships of trust with about OCing, were seeing me be detained right where I interact with all of them on nearly a daily basis. GRRRR all that trust got thrown out the window today ]

    Back on point: I told the cop, politely, that the reason I have a gun at school is because I am within my legal right to do so and because a majority of mass shootings have occurred on college campuses--and I don't want to be a victim. At this point, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, the cop was acting like he was just WAITING for me to make a wrong move or say something flippant so he would have an excuse to tackle me to the ground. I told him, AT LEAST THREE TIMES that it is completely legal for me to OC on UVU's campus because I have a CFP. He said he was going to give me a citation for disorderly conduct because they got a MWAG call and that I was absolutely wrong about OC on campus. At this point I started to get freaked out because the officer wasn't even allowing me to explain or use any logic, and his emotions were escalating VERY RAPIDLY. Thank goodness another officer arrived, who was much more level headed (but still didn't understand the law). Realizing that this wasn't going to be a 30 second stop, I remembered from reading previous threads on UCC.com that I should record any encounters with police. So I pulled out my iPhone, as casually as I could, and pressed record.

    I apologize for the jumpiness at points in the video, I couldn't see if I was getting the officer's "in the shot" or not, and you might need to turn up the volume full blast to hear it all, I accidentally covered up the mic at times and I didn't get a shot of the first officer (the one that scared the crap out of me) but you can hear him speak up about charging me with disorderly conduct AND trespassing later on in the clip.

    Now, I know that by posting this I am subjecting myself to public scorn and ridicule. I know there will be comments like, "Well, if it had been me, I would have said this..." and "You should have said this and this..." Please understand that I am a college student, nothing more, and that by the time I pressed record I was pretty shaken up by the first officer.
    Looking back and listening to the clip I can think of at least a dozen different things that I wish I had said too...
    Also understand, that when I did start recording, I was trying to deescalate a very tense situation that the previous officer had built up, and simply get the second officer to do most of the talking so I could have him put all of his opinions on the record, because the LAW was clearly no longer being discussed.
    I know there are a lot of you on this forum who, when you hear some of the officers' comments, are going to pull your hair out...The recording starts with the second officer telling me that I'm giving OC "a bad name."

    Before I post these videos, can I get in any kind of trouble for posting them???

    Edit: Here are the links
    YouTube - Utah Valley University Cops, Open Carry Part 1
    YouTube - Utah Valley University Cops, Open Carry Part 2
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  16. #30
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    I have no problems myself with OC and have done that on occasion... the only thing is that it really does no good to argue with cops who think they're right!

    This guy OBVIOUSLY knew more than the cop and showed it in the video, but the cop wasn't going to give in to some kid, or really probably anybody, because some cops think they're always right just because they're cops.

    (Case in point - you don't have to ID yourself as a CWP holder anymore during a traffic stop here in Utah, but if you don't, many cops will make a big deal out of it and act like they can cite you for it. It just happened to my bro in law who wasn't carrying at the time, I still let them know anyway.)

    The best thing to do would be to state the law very clearly as he did in the beginning, if the cop is going to hold to his ground blindly like he did, then the best thing would be to just comply and put it under his shirt for the day, get this officers name, and contact those who ACTUALLY KNOW the law and who are his superiors and let them know what happened and ask that they please educate their officers.

    Then the next day, go back to carrying OC and keep the superior who knows the laws' name and number in your phone in case you run into any trouble again.

    If your rights are idiotically being violated by cops, arguing with those same idiot cops aren't going to get you very far! Go to someone who will actually hear you out and who knows the laws.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

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