Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think?

This is a discussion on Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mustang00066 ksl.com - Police confront student carrying gun on UVU campus From what i understand he DOES have the right to do ...

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Thread: Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think?

  1. #76
    Member Array since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang00066 View Post
    ksl.com - Police confront student carrying gun on UVU campus

    From what i understand he DOES have the right to do it, but maybe not the best idea.

    In the video it seems he was trying to argue and "win" a debate instead of just doing what the officer said and then later making a call to someone who could inform the campus officers for any future troubles.

    What do you guys think?

    YouTube - Utah Valley University Cops, Open Carry Part 1
    I think the main issue here is that the law enforcement officer fails to realize the principle issue involved is that those who call in MWAG are either ignorant of the law or are trying to push their own agenda. The "everyone needs to feel safe" mantra is just that - it's a mantra, and it's not the law.

    As a Law Enforcement Officer, this gentleman has both a duty and responsibility to educate citizens who call in as to both the whys and wherefores behind the law. Instead of shouldering this responsibility, he instead attempts to coerce the open carrier into a mode of carry which will "keep the peace" while greasing the squeaky wheel, yet while eroding our rights to "keep and bear arms."

    As for the student's response, I thought he did a wonderful job, particularly given his age, of maintaining his cool, not being sucked into an arguement, and posting on youtube complete with salient but not over-the-top comments/captions.

    I also hope he filed a complaint with that officer's IAD, as any officer telling a citizen they should not do X when X is legal is overstepping the bounds of his authority.
    Why is it "shall not be infringed" is among the most misunderstood clauses of our Constitution?

    I'm a Virginia Tech Alum, and that tragedy was avoidable! Even after losing more than twenty bright young minds, they still don't get it. I hope others do, and soon.

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  3. #77
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Remember Archie Bunker who would say he was not a bigot he had colored friends, how he had nothing against "those people"? Well this is an Archie Bunker cop. If the officer was really pro 2A he would be talking to the complainant explaining that the OCing citizen was doing nothing wrong. Well within his rights. Explain to the citizen that while he understood their personal reluctance to accept the responsibility of carrying a gun. The citizen should thank those that do, because statistically it has been proven beyond a doubt to make the community safer, with less rape, less murder, less robbery, less assault, less violence and crime. But he does not do that because he is not really pro 2A. He lied to this citizens just as he Lied to God when he swore and OATH to protect and defend the Constitution. That lie tells me everything I ever need to know about that officer.
    "He lied to God".....that's quite a stretch. The issue isn't about carrying a firearm on campus.....it's about openly carrying a firearm. Apparently the law is unclear in this area as it relates to the college campus. The officer simply asked the kid to put it away and I believe he even stated that he agrees with his right to carry "concealed".
    How anyone could get from that to "he doesn't support the Constitution and lies to God" is beyond me.

  4. #78
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbum View Post
    No point missed you decide to take a shower everyday I hope but you can slip and fall.....look up the stats....should you not be ALLOWED to take a shower cause it may cause you harm. I SAY WE BAN ALL SHOWERS.......... SO IT SHALL BE MASTER!!!!


    Ummmmm... what? What does taking a shower have to do with open carry?
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    if the officer had asked Rosa Parks to sit in the back of the bus because it made people angry she should of done so and not busted the officers chops

    if the officer had asked those colored boys to not eat in the white section because it disrupting the business they should of done so and not busted the officers chops

    if the officer had asked those black folks to not vote in that election because it made people afraid they should of done so and not busted the officers chops

    if the officer had asked that Rabbi to conceal that Star of David because it made people nervous he should of done so and not busted the officers chops

    if the officer had politely asked that Muslim to take off that turban because it made people nervous and afraid, he should have and not busted the officers chops

    Remember Archie Bunker who would say he was not a bigot he had colored friends, how he had nothing against "those people"? Well this is an Archie Bunker cop. If the officer was really pro 2A he would be talking to the complainant explaining that the OCing citizen was doing nothing wrong. Well within his rights. Explain to the citizen that while he understood their personal reluctance to accept the responsibility of carrying a gun. The citizen should thank those that do, because statistically it has been proven beyond a doubt to make the community safer, with less rape, less murder, less robbery, less assault, less violence and crime. But he does not do that because he is not really pro 2A. He lied to this citizens just as he Lied to God when he swore and OATH to protect and defend the Constitution. That lie tells me everything I ever need to know about that officer.

    Sadly this student is bowing down because he loves UVU. Even though UVU has no love for him and would prefer he be unarmed defenseless prey ala Virginia Tech. Today they got on step one gun closer to their goal thanks to his being a good subject and one officers contempt for the Constitution
    The only thing I have to say about this video is:
    The student spent about 30 min attempting to state his right to open carry (which I have NO PROBLEM with) the mear fact that the student is standing (and video taping) the conversation is, in my own opinion, pushing his agenda, (with the video taping) and again, in my own opinion, making an issue and argument with the Officer. (Was the Officer aware of the student activly video taping the encounter?) I work as a PI and I cannot legally record conversations, but can record video of my Claimants. How would it look to the student, if his CCW got pulled for this incident with the officer. (you do know stranger things have happened in the past) personally, I have open carried in my State (NH) and CC'd for over 35 years. I prefer to CC because the gun that is never seen is usually the most effective one. Even in Nh, nothing has a quicker response by police, is "a man with a gun call" I know, most of us have a legal right to OC and CC, and I am all for it, but cool heads do prevail in this instance.
    One of my son's OC's on campus in NH and has never had a problem, or a challenge by campus officer, except for some odd looks while passing other students. Again, in my own opinion, the student should just, for the moment, cover his gun, and walk away, and OC again another day, and consider the fact he has generated interest, hopefully for the best.
    Sooner or later, the powers that be, will hopefully not stop the student again, and all will continue smoothly at the Campus. Until that happens, there will be friction, and animosity, and possible ban of OC on the campus. BUT then again, all I have said is "just my opinion"
    Ok, I'll stop, and shut my mouth, and not be a pain, but I'm just stating "my own opinion" just like the student stated his right to open carry.
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  6. #80
    Distinguished Member Array BlueNinjaGo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Just cause you CAN do something doesn't always mean its smart to do it.
    I agree with this, but I don't think the student was doing something irresponsible. Someone else brought up the "advocate" in Tennessee, who had the orange tipped Draco pistol in the state park. I would not compare the 2 things. The student wasn't carrying something "exotic", "unusual", etc etc. He wasn't doing anything threatening. He was just doing the same stuff any other student who volunteered would be doing. He wasn't wearing a ski mask and head-to-toe camouflage, or anything else suspicious.

    Basically, I don't think he was doing anything that members here wouldn't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    This guy was out to make an issue and did.
    From his statements, and the other stories/reports on it, I wouldn't say that's true. He said he had been carrying with no issues. Said he worked hard to gain people's trust. He wasn't protesting or doing anything extreme IMO.

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    The only thing I have to say about this video is:
    The student spent about 30 min attempting to state his right to open carry (which I have NO PROBLEM with) the mear fact that the student is standing (and video taping) the conversation is, in my own opinion, pushing his agenda
    W/O endorsing the specific tactic, I have to ask what is wrong with "pushing his agenda"?

    That's how things get changed. That's how wrong directions get stopped.

    That's how movement in the right direction gets started.

    Now to question if a particular tactic is productive in the fight to restore the RKBA is a good thing. Sometimes, one's initial reaction/idea is more likely to have unintended consequents. Sometimes, a better tactic can be found, by discussion within the RKBA community.

    But the need to "be pushing the RKBA agenda" is what we must do. Because the antis will push theirs -- until there is no RKBA.
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  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I know this is a shocker, but I agree with the cop 100%. And yes, a DC charge would be easy to make stick if that is what they wanted to do.
    DITTO

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    W/O endorsing the specific tactic, I have to ask what is wrong with "pushing his agenda"?

    That's how things get changed. That's how wrong directions get stopped.

    That's how movement in the right direction gets started.

    Now to question if a particular tactic is productive in the fight to restore the RKBA is a good thing. Sometimes, one's initial reaction/idea is more likely to have unintended consequents. Sometimes, a better tactic can be found, by discussion within the RKBA community.

    But the need to "be pushing the RKBA agenda" is what we must do. Because the antis will push theirs -- until there is no RKBA.
    I'll probably get slammed on my opinion here but here goes.

    Dave
    I DO understand all you're saying with regard to the OC debate and will of the People to excersize their lawful right to do so, but the act of taping the conversation and video of the officer...well that's pushing it a bit too far, and could be portrayed as entrapment.. I do believe, in the Part 1 if the incident, the officer asked the Student to put the phone/camera down. the student placed the unit down and continued to record, so that to me, is pushing his (the student's) agenda

    Yes, this is how movment's get started and how they get stopped as well.

    If the student didn't win the battle to OC that day, maybe he could try the next day, and casually OC until the School and it's population felt comfortable with his actions. this to me would be the best option available. If you can't win today's battle, keep trying, maybe in a different manner, in order to win the war
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  10. #84
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    The way I understand it, the incident was recorded so the LEO/school couldn't say anything happened that truely didn't. Same reasons LEOs use dash cams and audio recorders. If the incident ends up in court/IA, everyone knows what happened EXACTLY. A/V recordings help both sides, no one gets away with untrue claims.
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  11. #85
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    As KSTU-TV found out when they call the Utah BCI (who runs the Concealed Firearms Permit program in Utah), Nick Moyes was breaking no law by carrying openly.

    Other states may have laws against open carry, or may call it disturbing the peace or some such thing. And even in Utah there are people who try to confuse the issue, either out of ignorance or deliberately.

    But the fact is, Utah LAW (Utah Code 76-10-523) states that the prohibitions against concealing a firearm or carrying it fully loaded "do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued..."

    So, except for the normal prohibited places like Federal facilities, courts, jails, secure areas of airports, and certain private property, the law mentions nothing about peaceful open or concealed carry. With the Concealed Firearm Permit, public schools and public universities cannot prevent the carry of firearms in Utah. Nick Moyes broke no law, because the law is otherwise silent about open carry.
    Last edited by UtahRSO; March 11th, 2010 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Adding cited Utah code
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  12. #86
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    He didn't break the law. That wasn't the issue.

    I can go up to someone and ask them to tuck in their shirt, will they do it? Maybe


    His actions could potentially spark a new law about open carry in Utah though. Making the public aware of a law or lack there of in this case has gotten more a negative reaction by the police then a positive one.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    His actions could potentially spark a new law about open carry in Utah though. Making the public aware of a law or lack there of in this case has gotten more a negative reaction by the police then a positive one.
    I agree that all of our actions can cause change one way or another, but let me ask you something... What could have he done differently, so that he would still be open carrying at school? From everything I read, he was just adjusting a banner, on a ladder, at school. He claimed to care about his image enough to make sure he looks respectable.

    What I'm trying to get at is that some people in this thread have the mindset that he should not open carry at school. Period. And that doing so might cause a law to be passed that bans OC at public colleges.

    So you're saying that no one should exercise the right, because they might lose it? Then what's the point of having it?

    If no one OC's at schools, then what was the point of fighting for that right? And if we lose a right no one is able to use, is there a difference?

    I totally agree that someone doing something stupid, irresponsible, or out of the ordinary might jeopardize the rights of everyone, but this kid seemed to be minding his own business and not doing anything that I can see as blatantly stupid.

    And as for recording the conversation... I don't see that as "pushing his agenda." If the cop did anything illegal, it'd be nice to have some proof. Like someone else mentioned, cops have cameras on their vehicles and other recording devices. If everyone follows the laws and acts respectful, then I don't see why it makes a difference. He said he didn't even record the whole thing, showing that he didn't plan on this happening.

  14. #88
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    I hate to admit it but we live in a different world now. The majority of the public associate guns with either law enforcement or criminals. Its this ignorance that makes them think if you not one your the other.

    I meet people every day that don't know that you can conceal carry. I meet MORE people that don't know open carry is legal in Ohio.

    I believe that even if you are neat and trim with a good quality gun and pretty holster walking around minding you own business that the chances of being stopped because of a MWG complaint are still really high.

    It starts with educating the public. With the anti gun and left wing agenda being portrayed in our public schools its no wonder people are ignorant of the very laws that could save their lives one day.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post


    His actions could potentially spark a new law about open carry in Utah though. Making the public aware of a law or lack there of in this case has gotten more a negative reaction by the police then a positive one.
    I know others agree with you, however, if the state of Utah is willing to spend Millions of dollars and years in court (all the way to the Utah Supreme Court), to fight against the University of Utah (wanted to be able to ban CC and OC on campus), then I don't think this is even an issue.

    The state of Utah is not going to cave into the vast MINORITY. Antis are by a huge margin, the minority here.
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  16. #90
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    The next nut case that shows up at their school with the intentions of doing harm to others will shoot someone with a weapon first, and since they usually know when the action will start, they can pick them out. If they do not know where the weapons are they may pick another location for their evil deeds.

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