Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think?

This is a discussion on Stopped by cops for Open carry on Campus-Video. What do you think? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CenterTree Was it ever stated WHY this kid had a cam-corder with him to begin with? Maybe he was just looking (waiting) ...

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  1. #121
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post
    Was it ever stated WHY this kid had a cam-corder with him to begin with?
    Maybe he was just looking (waiting) for a "chance" to record his mantra.

    Or maybe he just happened to have it with him?? I don't know.

    Poor guy had to juggle a recording device, and a ladder all while trying to debate the Utah law with the LEO...LOL!
    If its not a crime to carry a cam-corder why do we care why he had it?

    Michael

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  3. #122
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    (Sigh!) I'd be perfectly happy with the ability to carrying concealed on a FL school campus...

    This guy is going to come out on top...OMO
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  4. #123
    Distinguished Member Array BlueNinjaGo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post
    Was it ever stated WHY this kid had a cam-corder with him to begin with?
    Technology is amazing. There are a lot of weird things caught on camera, and you don't see those people being questioned. With most college students owning a "smart phone" or whatever, I'm not surprised there wasn't more people recording this.

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post
    Was it ever stated WHY this kid had a cam-corder with him to begin with?
    Maybe he was just looking (waiting) for a "chance" to record his mantra.
    I never leave the house without a camera.... theres always one in my pocket, on my phone. You sound EXACTLY the same as the the anti-gun type who question why we carry firearms. we're looking for trouble, trying to play police, etc....

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Actually, school policy can in fact over ride state law in a sense. If the school does not want somebody on campus with a gun, that is there right assuming their is no legislation specifically prohibiting that exclusion in Utah. I have no idea if there is or not, I'm guessing not.
    You guessed wrong.

    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.
    Kevin Jensen
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    www.opencarry.org

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post
    Was it ever stated WHY this kid had a cam-corder with him to begin with?
    Maybe he was just looking (waiting) for a "chance" to record his mantra.

    Or maybe he just happened to have it with him?? I don't know.

    Poor guy had to juggle a recording device, and a ladder all while trying to debate the Utah law with the LEO...LOL!
    Nick recorded this encounter with his iPhone.
    Kevin Jensen
    Utah State Researcher,
    www.opencarry.org

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post
    Was it ever stated WHY this kid had a cam-corder with him to begin with?
    Maybe he was just looking (waiting) for a "chance" to record his mantra.

    Or maybe he just happened to have it with him?? I don't know.

    Poor guy had to juggle a recording device, and a ladder all while trying to debate the Utah law with the LEO...LOL!
    The iPhone is among many smart phones that has a high quality camera and video recording capability. It isn't like he was sporting a 1985 shoulder mounted RCA or something

    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blownsvt View Post
    sounds like he was within his rights and knows the law to me.
    yeah, the only issue to me is whether he did anything to make anyone feel threatened. If not, what difference does it make?
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  10. #129
    Member Array mamakennedy's Avatar
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    I love the way the LEO states that if the student exercises his rights that they will be taken away.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

  11. #130
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    I don't really think this is an issue of whether he was "legal" or not.

    In my mind, it's a matter of whether it is proper to wear a handgun openly on a college campus.

    Let me explain...

    If I go to church, it's "proper" for me to wear nice clothes. If I wear cut-offs and a t-shirt, folks might think it "disrespectful", or "improper".

    I'm an open carrier from way back. I open carried for many years before the concealed movement was even thought of, and I still do much of the time. I've regularly carried at grocery stores, hardware stores, on public streets, in various businesses, and most places I go.

    That said, there are places that I consider it "improper". For an example, I can "legally" open carry into a bank here. That said, why do something that's likely to cause a fuss? I can throw a vest on that fits right in with the western attire I normally wear, and it effectively prevents any complications.

    I seriously hate when folks tell me I shouldn't open carry, and I don't mean to offend anyone. I fully understand the OC movement that's catching on, but I also know that there's a right and a wrong way to go about it if that's what one wants to do.

    I open carry regularly, and I agree with the open carry movement even if I'm not truly a "part" of it. I don't do demonstrations, and I don't carry a video camera. I don't even to to "OC get-togethers". I just open carry where it's convenient and comfortable.

    But if I was going to carry on a Utah campus...

    I'd first try to "educate" the public. People make and change laws regularly according to their own perspectives, so education is "key" to keeping one's rights.

    I'd make up some pamplets to distribute, and I'd start some discussions on the subject. I'd let people ask me about it, and answer their questions in an informative way.

    Then, once people knew abouit it, and knew me, I'd maybe open carry to see what I could teach from that.

    But to forego the first steps, and simply jump to the last tends to scare people, and causes problems where none should exist. Once people see you as an extremist, they won't pay much attention to anything you have to say.

    A college is an educational facility, so use it that way. Educate them first; then when they know the facts, and understand the concept, try exposing them to what you've taught them.

    After all, few would understand calculus without having taken a few preparatory courses first. You can't just throw it at them, say "Here's the way it is", and expect them to understand and agree with it.

    Daryl

  12. #131
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    I think the key word here is "I" or from our point of view meaning you. What you feel to be proper or improper is just what you think. There are people out there that think completely different then you or me. Don't get me wrong, I am not judging anybody here. But there is a reason why justice is blind. Facts only. I believe in just because you have a right to to something does not mean you have to use that right everywhere you go. But again there are those that do. It is just the way the world turns.

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landor View Post
    I think the key word here is "I" or from our point of view meaning you. What you feel to be proper or improper is just what you think. There are people out there that think completely different then you or me. Don't get me wrong, I am not judging anybody here. But there is a reason why justice is blind. Facts only. I believe in just because you have a right to to something does not mean you have to use that right everywhere you go. But again there are those that do. It is just the way the world turns.
    And that's pretty much my point as well.

    The collective public's perception of firearms here in Arizona is somewhat different than it is on the west side of the Colorado River. The primary difference in the laws between here and Kali is the collective public's opinions and views.

    Here you can open carry a fully loaded firearm most places one might go and seldom get a second glance. Not so in Kalifornia; they want to ban the open carry of unloaded firearms now. Too much of a threat, I guess.

    It's good, and proper that we exercise our rights. It's also good IMO to show some discipline and wisdom in how and where we do it.

    "Because we can" is generally not a good reason to cause a fuss.

    ;)

    Daryl

  14. #133
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    Here's an excerpt from a local Gun dealer in my area, it was a FAQ about gun laws in our state of NH. I thought it would be interesting to see what a FFL has to say about Open carry in NH The question was asked about Open carry in NH, and here's the Dealer's reply
    .Second Amendment Arms LLC

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    Frequently Asked Questions about NH Gun Laws
    Frequently Asked Questions about New Hampshire Gun Laws

    Copyright 2006-2010 Sam Cohen

    From June 2002 until February 2006, I was the volunteer who received and returned all telephone calls to Gun Owners of New Hampshire, which uses voicemail to receive all calls; there is no physical office, nor office telephone. The most common calls were questions about New Hampshire gun laws, often asked by people thinking about moving here from other states. I particularly enjoyed talking to people from our neighboring state to the south, because if it was the first time they learned about our freedoms compared with the government restrictions in Massachusetts, they were like kids opening Christmas presents.

    I’m not a lawyer and cannot offer legal advice, but it might be useful to present a summary of how I answered typical questions about New Hampshire gun laws. DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this article are mine only, and are not endorsed by any organization. I disclaim responsibility for any use that might be made of the contents of this article. For legal advice, contact an attorney. (I recommend Evan Nappen, the Corporate Counsel and a Director of Pro-Gun New Hampshire; go to E.F. Nappen Attorney at Law, PC - Home , or call 603/223-0001.) To view New Hampshire’s state laws (RSAs, Revised Statutes Annotated) on line, go to NH.gov - The Official Web Site of New Hampshire State Government and click on “Laws & Rules,” on the left side of the page.



    Q: What do I have to do to buy a gun in New Hampshire?

    A: Go to a gun store, a gun show, or a private party selling a gun, and give them money.

    If you buy a gun from a Federal Firearms Licensee (“FFL”) — that is, from a gun dealer/gun store, including from a licensed dealer at a gun show — federal laws apply to the purchase; in particular, you must be at least 18 years old to buy a rifle or shotgun from an FFL, and at least 21 years old to buy a handgun. Of course by law you can’t possess a gun if you’re a “prohibited person” — meaning someone who’s been convicted of a felony, or who’s been convicted of a misdemeanor “crime of domestic violence,” or who falls into certain other categories as well. The FFL will conduct an “instant background check” by telephone to verify that you are not a “prohibited person.”


    Q: How do I get a license or a permit to buy a gun?

    A: You don’t. New Hampshire doesn’t require you to have a license or a permit to buy or own guns, with one exception: if you buy a handgun (not a rifle or shotgun) from a private party — as opposed to a licensed dealer — then by state law (RSA 159:10 and RSA 159:14) you must either have a License to Carry or be “personally known” to the seller.


    Q: How do I register my guns?

    A: You don't. Welcome to New Hampshire, where "Live Free or Die" is taken seriously, and you don't have to worry about people in uniform coming to your door to take your (registered) guns — because there’s no gun registration in this state. What you own is nobody else’s business.


    Q: What about machine guns? Aren’t they registered?

    A: OK, you got me. Even though there’s no state registration in New Hampshire, “Machine guns” (full-auto or select-fire guns, including burst-mode capable guns), sound suppressors (“silencers”), short-barreled rifles (barrels under 16 inches) and shotguns (under 18 inches), handguns with shoulder stocks, and certain other unusual guns fall under federal law, and involve special federal forms and fees.


    Q: Do I need a license to carry a gun?

    A: Yes, but only for these two purposes (per RSA 159:4): (1) to carry a loaded handgun concealed upon the person, other than in your home or place of business (where you can do so without a license); and (2) to have a loaded handgun in a vehicle (whether the handgun is concealed or not).

    I’m not sure if riding a motorcycle or bicycle is considered being “in a vehicle”; maybe your lawyer can answer that, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s always wise to take a conservative approach to these questions.

    Note that you may not have a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle, by the way (per fish and game law RSA 207:7 – where “vehicle” means a motor vehicle, aircraft, or powered or towed boat, but apparently not an unpowered rowboat or canoe).


    Q: Can I carry a pistol or revolver openly, say in an exposed belt holster?

    A: Yes. Furthermore, you do not need a License to Carry (the piece of paper says “Pistol/Revolver License”) to carry a loaded handgun UNconcealed — that is, visible, for example in an exposed holster — unless you’re in a vehicle. (See the previous answer about vehicles.)

    Keep in mind that some people may panic when they see a gun, and if they call the police, the police may come to investigate — but the New Hampshire Attorney General’s office has made it clear that open carry is a right, and that another person’s “annoyance and alarm” doesn’t supersede that right.


    On the one hand, we will indeed lose our rights if we don’t exercise them, but on the other hand, it’s not smart to frighten or antagonize people, especially if you scare enough people to make the news — which may lead to legislation restricting open carry. Use good judgment. (Hint: look and act like a responsible citizen. It helps to be well-dressed.) [Update, February 2010: Sure enough, because a bunch of people carrying openly were rowdy in the State House during a House vote on a states rights bill in 2009, the legislature is now debating two gun-ban bills, one against open carry in all government buildings in the state.] Also, from a practical (as opposed to “political”) point of view, if you’re carrying openly in a place where there might actually be an armed criminal attack, you’ll be the first target.



    Q: Where can I and can I not carry? What about banks, bars, and hospitals?

    A: By state law (RSA 159:19), the only place you can’t have a gun is a courthouse or courtroom. By federal law, there are two places where you can’t carry, but these federal laws are controversial; still, I advise people not to be the “test case” in federal court, because (a) if you lose in court, then you’re going to federal prison, and (b) if you win in court, Congress may well rewrite the law to be more restrictive, because they’re that way (and this actually happened in 1996; look up the 1995 US Supreme Court case United States v. Lopez). Here are the two federal laws:


    (1) Title 18, United States Code, Section 930 prohibits firearms (and also knives with blades longer than 2-1/2 inches) in federal “facilities,” meaning buildings — and that includes post offices. The controversy arises over paragraph (d) of that section, which provides an exemption for “the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.” Note that despite the law, the Code of Federal Regulations says no guns are allowed, and you’ll find notices posted on the door threatening you with arrest. Federal law (United States Code) trumps federal regulations, but I find handcuffs uncomfortable.

    (2) Title 18, United State Code, Section 922, paragraph (q) is the Gun Free School Zones Act. You can’t have a gun in, on the grounds of, or within 1,000 feet of the property line of, an elementary or secondary school, whether public or private. (Note that this doesn’t include colleges or universities.)


    18 USC 922 (q) includes exemptions for private property (i.e., you’re OK if your house is next to a school), for police officers on duty, for school-approved programs, and for unloaded guns in locked containers or locked gun racks. There’s also an exemption for people holding carry licenses, but only if state law requires that “before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license.” Unfortunately, New Hampshire state law (RSA 159:6) arguably does NOT make the cut, in part because town selectmen and city mayors can issue carry licenses, and they’re not “law enforcement authorities.” But even if your carry license was issued by a police chief, it doesn’t protect you, because our state law doesn’t meet the requirements of the federal law.

    This federal “Gun Free School Zones Act” is unpopular, and some people prefer to believe that New Hampshire’s carry licenses provide an exemption, despite the above analysis. Further, nobody in New Hampshire has been arrested or prosecuted on the basis of this federal law. Still, you have to ask yourself if you want to be the test case.

    So, to summarize: state law prohibits you from carrying in courtrooms and courthouses; federal law, though controversial, “technically” puts you at risk of arrest and prosecution for carrying in federal buildings (including post offices) and in or near elementary or secondary schools.

    Besides all of this, on private property (including stores, theaters, restaurants, etc.), the property owner can set a “no guns” policy, ask you to leave if you’re carrying, and have you arrested for trespassing if you don’t leave, but otherwise you’re legal. (Note: if you hear of such policies, please inform Pro-Gun New Hampshire: 603/226-PGNH.)
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  15. #134
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarylW View Post
    I don't really think this is an issue of whether he was "legal" or not.

    In my mind, it's a matter of whether it is proper to wear a handgun openly on a college campus.

    Let me explain...

    If I go to church, it's "proper" for me to wear nice clothes. If I wear cut-offs and a t-shirt, folks might think it "disrespectful", or "improper".

    I'm an open carrier from way back. I open carried for many years before the concealed movement was even thought of, and I still do much of the time. I've regularly carried at grocery stores, hardware stores, on public streets, in various businesses, and most places I go.

    That said, there are places that I consider it "improper". For an example, I can "legally" open carry into a bank here. That said, why do something that's likely to cause a fuss? I can throw a vest on that fits right in with the western attire I normally wear, and it effectively prevents any complications.

    I seriously hate when folks tell me I shouldn't open carry, and I don't mean to offend anyone. I fully understand the OC movement that's catching on, but I also know that there's a right and a wrong way to go about it if that's what one wants to do.

    I open carry regularly, and I agree with the open carry movement even if I'm not truly a "part" of it. I don't do demonstrations, and I don't carry a video camera. I don't even to to "OC get-togethers". I just open carry where it's convenient and comfortable.

    But if I was going to carry on a Utah campus...

    I'd first try to "educate" the public. People make and change laws regularly according to their own perspectives, so education is "key" to keeping one's rights.

    I'd make up some pamplets to distribute, and I'd start some discussions on the subject. I'd let people ask me about it, and answer their questions in an informative way.

    Then, once people knew abouit it, and knew me, I'd maybe open carry to see what I could teach from that.

    But to forego the first steps, and simply jump to the last tends to scare people, and causes problems where none should exist. Once people see you as an extremist, they won't pay much attention to anything you have to say.

    A college is an educational facility, so use it that way. Educate them first; then when they know the facts, and understand the concept, try exposing them to what you've taught them.

    After all, few would understand calculus without having taken a few preparatory courses first. You can't just throw it at them, say "Here's the way it is", and expect them to understand and agree with it.

    Daryl
    A huge number of people (brady bunch, et al) don't think it's proper to carry a concealed handgun. What do you think about that?

  16. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I agree with your observation about his conduct; he was not disorderly.

    However, did his actions raise alarm or offense with the public at large? That is the sole question that needs answered to make a dc case. I think if one wanted too, it could be done very easily.
    I'm not saying that it is right, but I am saying that it could be done.
    ^^^^I Disagree^^^^^

    You need to have enough people to agree that the conduct was DISORDERLY
    Example;
    If you are an officer in New Orleans with Mardigras going on , and you get a comlpaint of complete debauchery, and you show up and its just people having fun, and maybe bending the rules, are you going to arrest people for D Conduct?
    I highly doubt it , simply because there was'nt 50-100 people complaining.
    Same issue!

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Interesting!

    Is there a "reasonable person" element in Ohio Law and/or court cases?

    Here in Virginia, in both statute and case law, we have a fair amount of the following scattered through various statutes & cases decisions:

    "...in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another...."

    "...would cause a reasonable person to...."

    "...in a manner such that a reasonable person may believe...."

    "...was placed in reasonable fear of death, criminal sexual assault, or bodily injury to himself or to a minor child...."

    "...shall be conclusively deemed to have acted with reasonable...."

    "... reasonable under the circumstances...."

    Were all but a few folk at the site going about their business w/o "raising alarm" would that have any weight in an Ohio court? If only one Anti "raised alarm" while everyone else was OK, would it carry weight?
    ^^^^I agree^^^^^

    One or two people who are ignorant of the law complaining, does not constitute Disorderly conduct if in fact everyone else is content.

    Quote Originally Posted by mamakennedy View Post
    I love the way the LEO states that if the student exercises his rights that they will be taken away.
    ^^^^^YEP^^^^

    LEO buffoonery, AKA (Barney Fife) mentality,Only those guilty need to take offense
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant48 View Post
    Since when does something need to be "expressly allowed" for it to be legal? Unless something is explicitly disallowed, it is legal... plain and simple, nothing "vague" about it. It bugs me when people dont understand that.
    ^^^^^I Agree^^^^^^


    "Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it. Right is right, even if nobody is doing it."
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    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

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