Dealing with PESTS - Page 2

Dealing with PESTS

This is a discussion on Dealing with PESTS within the Reference & "How To" Forum forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 10thmtn This is true. But - not everyone is a fit "operative" type that can "move with a purpose." We sometimes forget ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    This is true. But - not everyone is a fit "operative" type that can "move with a purpose." We sometimes forget that when developing tactics. Folks who have children with them, or are older, or who have a physical impairment, or women (especially wearing heels) are not going to be able to execute a flanking maneuver as quickly as a fit 20-something male.

    Bottom line is that I would not count on a flanking maneuver giving me a 100% sure picture of what is going on behind me. A quick glance over the shoulder will likely be just as unexpected as an explosive flanking maneuver. By the time they realize what you're doing, it's likely too late to take advantage.

    There's no "right" answer - just different methods depending on the situation and the condition of the defender.
    Doing this in person makes what I'm saying make more sense. You do not have to be a SEAL trained MMA fighter to move with a purpose. The point is to move....not dither on the spot and sheepishly shuffle a little. Simply step to your left or right and WALK around him just like you were walking to the fridge to get a sandwich. Nothing tactical and nothing athletic is needed. You are simply re-positioning. I see 60 year old students do it in class all the time.

    The key is to not cower and back up. Move laterally and then laterally again moving around them in an elliptical (orbiting) manner. You can see in the article in the pics of the 3 guys in the parking lot how much peripheral vision ONE step opens up.....it is NOT something that takes an olympic athlete to do.

    If you have a spouse with you grab her and put her behind you. Same with the kid. Unfortunately there just really are not any techniques that...

    A. Work for EVERYONE
    B. Work in EVERY situation
    C. Require you to do NOTHING

    MOST folks are going to see you moving out from in front of them and suddenly remember they are late for an appointment somewhere else. And if they DON'T..then you have just bettered your position.

    Lets take your "woman in heels" situation...is that more difficult to step off to 3 and then to 3 again and then to 3 again?? Yes I suppose. It is also gonna be pretty difficult to FIGHT in those heels if a guy comes up behind her and grabs her while she's talking to the first guy. So what are we going to do? I agree 100% with using reflective surfaces. Use 'em if ya got 'em. But they are not always available. So then what?

    Turn your head? Try it with a training partner. His instructions are to attack you as soon as you turn your head. See how exponentially more difficult that is to prevent the sucker punch from landing or the tackle when your head is turned.

    Again, this stuff works.For EVERYONE. Period.

    Is it EASIER if you are physically fit? Yes. But then again, so is walking up and down stairs, walking the dog, painting the house and walking to the fridge to get a sandwich. EVERYTHING is easier if you are more fit. But unless you are on crutches it is not difficult to take 2 or 3 steps so you can see what was previously behind you.

    Give it a try....it will make sense when you actually do it.
    Randy Harris
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Master Class IDPA SSP

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  2. #17
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    This should be a sticky.

    It's natural for animals (humans are animals) to avoid being trapped or cornered and threats of such and to maintain a safety zone from strangers. Any threat closing on my safety zone that limits my mobility and range of response to force-against-force - as directly as two rams butting heads - or worse, getting sandwiched between such force - is a threat to slip, asap.

    A way to unify, unabashedly, the Stop-Encroachment/Tape Loop/Step-to-Three-or-Nine elements is, as in Baqua Zhang, a martial art characterized by the very footwork pattern that the Step-to-Three-or-Nine describes: bring the hands to a protective posture (palms in) that expands toward the threat (palms opening out) while simultaneously stepping to his flank in a circular pattern at a distance appropriate to the situation - an expanding spiral if space allows or a closing spiral if necessary to be first with the most or even some in-between distance of circle walking that maintains the safety zone of two arms' lengths. To complete the meld, throw in some appropriate noise levels of, "Excuse me!", "I can't help you!", or "NO!", or even more choice exclamations or no noise - again whatever is approriate.

    This combined lower- (circle-walking) and upper- (self-defense hand posture) body action slips the direct angle of the threat, poses a counter, expands angles of awareness and attracts attention. The hand action may also include drawing a tactical flashlight or pepper spray. I am not shy about expressing my willingness to defend myself to a threat closing on my safety zone as my limitations in assessing expose me to a risk I avoid at all costs.

    Mobility is advantageous, so I minimize any spontaneous, offbeat "interview".

    IIRC, you, OP, use a Pekiti Tirsia Kali footwork technique to "explode off of the X". Bagua explodes toward the threat leading with the side the threat permits. I'm no expert and hope that this is a true representation. It is important to practice what is most effective and efficient. The martial art, Bagua, uses open-palm (not closed-fist) striking, by the way.

    Sounds like we are on the same page.
    Randy Harris
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Master Class IDPA SSP

    TRAIN with me....http://www.suarezinternationalstore....px?find=harris

  3. #18
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    Excellent. Great series of posts. Many thanks.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Thumbs up Thanks for posting!!

    Another vote for making this a "Sticky".

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    The fence looks like a good idea to signal someone to stop approaching; but if they have gotten as close as in the youtube video, either the game is already on or you risk getting your wrist/ upper arm trapped. Also, risk of being accused of being the aggressor as you would be the first one doing the pushing with raised hands.

    I think it looks great in a static pic or could work with someone who really is conversational and non-threatening, to back them a bit (that is on a real pest), but I also think you could be in a world of trouble if you did that to either a natural fighter (typical bad guy) or a trained BG. Also, with a dude that close, with his hands at his side, if he has a blade he'll cut your privates the second you raise your hands.

    A mild thumbs down on this video --not on what Cruel Hand posted which is great stuff that should be a sticky.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I really like your explanation of words and phrases, and why you use them.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    Thanks for introducing me to Geoff Thompson. Some videos on Youtube, looks like a great teacher. The Fence - Geoff Thompson - Clip 1 - YouTube
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The fence looks like a good idea to signal someone to stop approaching; but if they have gotten as close as in the youtube video, either the game is already on or you risk getting your wrist/ upper arm trapped. Also, risk of being accused of being the aggressor as you would be the first one doing the pushing with raised hands.

    I think it looks great in a static pic or could work with someone who really is conversational and non-threatening, to back them a bit (that is on a real pest), but I also think you could be in a world of trouble if you did that to either a natural fighter (typical bad guy) or a trained BG. Also, with a dude that close, with his hands at his side, if he has a blade he'll cut your privates the second you raise your hands.

    A mild thumbs down on this video --not on what Cruel Hand posted which is great stuff that should be a sticky.
    The vid (in two parts) compliments the post. I like it. Covert Control that quickly has the superior position if things go south.

    The fence is necessary at close distance because not even trained fighters can defend against a quick strike so close. The situation that the OP and video address is not an end all to be all against trained fighters or privates slicers, and in my opponent's wheelhouse is the last place that I want to be. The fence, as Geoff describes in the video, is more of a sensing probe - relaxed. If someone tries to trap it, give it to them while exploding into them. It's like Chinese handcuffs, remember: the more you pull away and struggle the tighter it gets.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  8. #23
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    Let me emphasize that I'm in no way disagreeing with Cruel Hand and his excellent series of posts.

    I was commenting on one possible poor outcome of letting another get as close as in the vid. Besides having set yourself for being trapped or taken to your knees with a wrist lock, or having a finger broken, I think in that position you are also really set up for either being thrown backward or choked out.

    I realize that the idea is that you get a fast blow in, but remember you are not the aggressor. You can't hammer that blow till something else happens at the aggressor's discretion.

    Bottom line, you might let a friend you are having an argument with get that close, but not the friendly street person who hangs at the Stop and Rob. And that fellow ain't coming in that close with his hands down at his side for no reason.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to argue with you; I think we actually mostly agree. However, if you are moving laterally and orbiting at a walking pace, then someone behind you might well be able to keep pace with you. You may not be able to see them simply by orbiting, depending how close they are and how fast they move relative to you.

    Do you have kids? I have two, both small. Trying to grab them both and move is going to be difficult - especially if one is strapped into a stroller. In such a situation, a quick glance might be a better option.

    The bottom line is situational awareness, including seeing behind you, and avoiding tunnel vision on the potential threat. How you do that is going to depend on the circumstances.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Let me emphasize that I'm in no way disagreeing with Cruel Hand and his excellent series of posts.

    I was commenting on one possible poor outcome of letting another get as close as in the vid. Besides having set yourself for being trapped or taken to your knees with a wrist lock, or having a finger broken, I think in that position you are also really set up for either being thrown backward or choked out.

    I realize that the idea is that you get a fast blow in, but remember you are not the aggressor. You can't hammer that blow till something else happens at the aggressor's discretion.

    Bottom line, you might let a friend you are having an argument with get that close, but not the friendly street person who hangs at the Stop and Rob. And that fellow ain't coming in that close with his hands down at his side for no reason.
    No, the fence is a tool - and it isn't the tool to stop a freight train. And I'm willing and legally rightful to throw the first and last blow at a stranger who I perceive is hostile and is violating my safety zone. It makes no sense to let an aggressor throw the first punch. I'm not obligated to a fair fight in getting from one place where I'm suppossed to be to another.
    Bark'n likes this.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  11. #26
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    Excellent series of posts Cruel Hand Luke!

    Thanks for taking the time to write all this out in a clear and concise manner in an easy to read format.

    I sent a PM to an administrator to nominate having this posted in the "Reference & How To" forum and to also make this a sticky. I hope it finds it's way to that section.

    I learned a lot of this same stuff from Marc "The Animal" MacYoung. Another very learned and street wise, individual.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I'm not trying to argue with you; I think we actually mostly agree. However, if you are moving laterally and orbiting at a walking pace, then someone behind you might well be able to keep pace with you. You may not be able to see them simply by orbiting, depending how close they are and how fast they move relative to you.

    Do you have kids? I have two, both small. Trying to grab them both and move is going to be difficult - especially if one is strapped into a stroller. In such a situation, a quick glance might be a better option.

    The bottom line is situational awareness, including seeing behind you, and avoiding tunnel vision on the potential threat. How you do that is going to depend on the circumstances.
    I agree with you. And I also believe that this not should be such a rigid methodology that you can't improvise and change things up a little depending on your circumstances, your situation, or any companions in your immediate group.

    This is a great methodology to employ when dealing with unknown creatures who approach you on the street. A good solid format for how to respond.

    However, if you feel the need to deviate from the program to meet certain immediate needs, I think you are free to do so. I just wouldn't deviate too much from the format/methodology unless I felt I really needed to.
    Last edited by Bark'n; October 6th, 2011 at 01:19 AM.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #28
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    10thmtn, one method is while showing the fence - eyes on the code orange threat at all times - to pace between one step or up to 90 degrees of one circular direction then to reverse in the opposite circular direction. Pick up any additional threats in you peripheral vision as you show the code orange threat and any attackers that you are ready, willing, and able to resist; and you are defending your little ones as you are forming a military-like guard perimeter between them and the code orange threat and making you children the apex of your partial circle walk. IOW, you brush past them on their side of the threat in both directions of your walk. The threat is the center of the imaginary circle.
    Motion and noise attract attention.
    IMO, it is not etched in stone that the shoulders have to be square to the threat as one steps (seems a bit clunky and unnatural to me).
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    No, the fence is a tool - and it isn't the tool to stop a freight train. And I'm willing and legally rightful to throw the first and last blow at a stranger who I perceive is hostile and is violating my safety zone. It makes no sense to let an aggressor throw the first punch. I'm not obligated to a fair fight in getting from one place where I'm suppossed to be to another.
    I guess that (in bold) is a discussion for a different thread.

    Something commonly practiced in my Krav and Arnis class is dealing with the "bully" who walks up to you and using his hands as in that fence, shoves you back with 2 or 3 short shoves. There are so many counters a fighter could make to that I don't see it as viable defense to intrusion into your space except as a message that maybe there has been poor victim selection. If that message isn't recognized, or is ignored, you could be in a world of hurt. Oh, there's a mobility throw to be had in there too-- and the aggressor could put your head right through some plate glass. The defender, guy doing the shoving will never see the other guy's hand as it comes up the center line to the right side of the head; not at that close distance.

    Again, with the video pic in mind, Cruel Hand's suggested move to 3 or 9 laterally is still a really good move. You haven't shoved anyone, haven't punched anyone, you are disrupting the other guy's flow, you have retained options that range from
    attacking the neck, to shoving, to kicking in the knee, to running like heck, to stepping back and drawing.

    Why stand there playing a game of "I shove you?" My opinion only, and YMMV; and lets hope none of us get to test this stuff anyplace but the gym.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #30
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    Mobility is key to martial art. Without it, the biggest and strongest wins every time. "This stuff" I hope is ready for the crucible.

    Your bold is my response to your statement
    [You] risk... being accused of being the aggressor as you would be the first one doing the pushing with raised hands.
    and, IMO, applies to this rather inclusive thread. I have to be willing to be first with the best shot - as was indicated in the video.

    Counters exist for everything. Common sense in common defensive situations may determine a best tactic. Countering a shove doesn't work very well when there's no shove; and the fence is no shove.

    The video covers center-line shoves at the end of Part I. Maneuvering with the fence, my strength feels for weakness. Martial art.

    "There's no 'right' answer - just different methods depending on the situation and the condition of the defender", and, I might add, the level of aggression or threat that the good guy is facing - a huge variable, I think you agree.

    The fence is a "sensing probe" to determine the level of hostility of the threat. And, as in the video, the threat has to watch out for my hook, too. Are you saying that you prefer to begin a fight with your hands hanging limply at your side?
    Last edited by Pistology; October 6th, 2011 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Deference to Topic
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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