Modified Firearm for Defensive Carry...is it lawful? - Page 2

Modified Firearm for Defensive Carry...is it lawful?

This is a discussion on Modified Firearm for Defensive Carry...is it lawful? within the Related Gear & Equipment forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 45tek I would refer to Mas Ayoobs (The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry) chapter 5, pge 69. Lighter trigger opens up ...

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 52

Thread: Modified Firearm for Defensive Carry...is it lawful?

  1. #16
    VIP Member
    Array SIGP250's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MO - Rock Ranch
    Posts
    2,404
    Quote Originally Posted by 45tek View Post
    I would refer to Mas Ayoobs (The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry) chapter 5, pge 69. Lighter trigger opens up the "FALSE allegation of an accidental discharge" Even revolver with exposed hammers are called into question. .." attorney fabricates a case of accidental discharge due to recklessly cocking hammer and creating hair trigger (or carrying pistol that would always fire with ("hair trigger"). This may get thrown out, it may not. But why take the chance? IMHO
    My guess is that this story gets told to CCW student by 8 out of 10 NRA certified instructors. It does make some sense. I'm not sure how an attorney can prove that the hammer was cocked when you pulled the trigger, especially if there are no witnesses.

    Why take a chance? I would not think of bobbing a hammer on a 1911. Bobbed hammers are common on stubbies mainly to prevent snagging.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying


  2. #17
    Member Array 45tek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    United States Of America
    Posts
    102
    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    My guess is that this story gets told to CCW student by 8 out of 10 NRA certified instructors. It does make some sense. I'm not sure how an attorney can prove that the hammer was cocked when you pulled the trigger, especially if there are no witnesses.

    Why take a chance? I would not think of bobbing a hammer on a 1911. Bobbed hammers are common on stubbies mainly to prevent snagging.
    Bobbing would be a plus on the defense, cause they cant say you cocked it to create "hair trigger". If my carry was a revolver, bobbing or just plain ole concealed hammer would be my choice.

    Kinda of path here but, there is a shop owner in Phoenix, AZ. who is in jail now for shooting a homeless guy. After several reports to 911 of threats by owner. After several altercations when the homeless guy came in shop several times. Even after homeless guy is arrested for trespassing. The day of shooting, shop owner was on the phone with 911 as victim approached the shop owner after previously saying "Im gonna take that gun and..."

    My point is prosecutors will have a field day with modded firearms. Now leaving my family behind for X amount of years is not worth it. Its a risk you leave in the hands of Judge/Jury. When a stock G19 or SIG 229 would do the trick. Its the prosecutors job to make you look like a vigilante/gun nut/malice hearted murderer.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    5,318
    No changing triggers to make lighter or take away or change safety features. Enahncing or making safer like the others have said shouldnt hurt.
    Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.


    I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Naugatuck, CT
    Posts
    2,406
    Quote Originally Posted by nevnut View Post
    In the self defense training I took in March, the instructors advised having any sort of "flashy" mods done, like fancy handgrips or gold trim may be a strike against you in court. They said the lawyers would make you out to be some sort of gun-nut who couldn't wait to fire his gun at something. Just sold my Taurus PT92AF with cherry wood grips and gold trim because of that and bought a Glock30SF for my primary carry.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #20
    Member Array bagged2drag's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    32
    A great question and a lot of good answers. I've often wondered about this myself. Thanks everyone for your input.

  6. #21
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    16,887
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Don't carry any ammo named Devastator or Annihilator
    For sure. And don't call your firearm by its nickname--Killer!

    As for the "accidental discharge," my reply to the attorney is, "No accident. I meant to shoot the BG."
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  7. #22
    VIP Member
    Array SIGP250's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MO - Rock Ranch
    Posts
    2,404
    Quote Originally Posted by 45tek View Post
    Bobbing would be a plus on the defense, cause they cant say you cocked it to create "hair trigger". If my carry was a revolver, bobbing or just plain ole concealed hammer would be my choice.

    Kinda of path here but, there is a shop owner in Phoenix, AZ. who is in jail now for shooting a homeless guy. After several reports to 911 of threats by owner. After several altercations when the homeless guy came in shop several times. Even after homeless guy is arrested for trespassing. The day of shooting, shop owner was on the phone with 911 as victim approached the shop owner after previously saying "Im gonna take that gun and..."

    My point is prosecutors will have a field day with modded firearms. Now leaving my family behind for X amount of years is not worth it. Its a risk you leave in the hands of Judge/Jury. When a stock G19 or SIG 229 would do the trick. Its the prosecutors job to make you look like a vigilante/gun nut/malice hearted murderer.
    Yes, I completely agree with you about bobbing. Many LEO's who still carry revolvers have the hammers bobbed for their own safety as well as reasons you mention. I just got to tired to write anymore.

    Some states are going to look at the circumstances differently too. Some may argue that we are all treated equal. I would not want to test that in an anti-gun state. Modifications also include things like removing manual safeties defeating trigger safeties, etc. I know some smiths that won't do trigger mods. It is not too difficult to change a sear to full auto. Another accessory mod. I have heard stories about is having something like a skull and cross bones engraved into the grips. Once the gun is in front of a jury as evidence, what may seem harmless to the defendant might look different to the jury, especially if the prosecutor plays it up.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

  8. #23
    Member Array snip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    89
    All the laws i have read only say that you may use "deadly force" in certain circumstances. The laws that I have read do not specify how you use apply that deadly force so if you use a heavily modded gun, a broom, or even a grenade launcher the law only states "deadly force." now if you happen to use a grenade launcher and it was justified you will probably be charged with having the grenade launcher and the prosecutor will try to say that you just wanted to kill someone but if you did it in self defense the law says you are ok. you just need to be able to convince the jury that you were following the law.

  9. #24
    jfl
    jfl is offline
    Distinguished Member Array jfl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Palm Beach County, FL
    Posts
    1,485
    I have heard these arguments against modified guns since the days I joined PDO, years before it's demise.
    I have yet to find any number of clear-cut SD cases where it created a problem.

    Until then, it will be an "urban legend" for me, just like the idea that having a visible gun, OC or printing will make you a prime target.

    Don't take what instructors say as Gospel; I have heard pretty scary things at CCW classes.
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array 1911luver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,105
    I gotta say I've wondered this and read about it a lot in the gun rags. At the end of the day though I don't think its any issue,if you act within the laws of self defense for your state.

    A justified self defense shooting is just that,justified. If you shoot someone and you can't prove that they were a clear threat to your life or you had reason to fear for your life that meets the legal definition in your area,your gonna have a problem. I don't care if you shot him with your local police chiefs gun.

    All that being said my carry gun is a S&W 340PD with a concealed hammer. I had my gunsmith disable the internal lock for piece of mind,and I'm not worried about it. The reason being here in Florida if a shooting is ruled justified then you are immune from any civil the bad guys family would try to bring.
    Snub nose revolvers,the original concealed carry guns.

  11. #26
    GM
    GM is offline
    VIP Member Array GM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,866
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    For sure it's lawful.
    Firearm customization is a rather huge business here in the U.S.
    Is it OK to carry a customized/modified firearm for self-defense carry?

    I hope so 'cause I do it nearly every day.

    I have better things to worry about.

    I'd be more concerned regarding ammo selection.

    Don't carry any ammo named Devastator or Annihilator
    That was a good advice
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

  12. #27
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Oceanfront Property
    Posts
    3,850
    Reloading also changes ballistic patterns and can wreak havoc in a SD case.

    New Hampshire vs. Kennedy: NH officer pulls over a drunk, who scuffles for his handgun. Officer has his Colt loaded with handloads that duplicate the CCI Flying Ashtray round, which was of limited availability. The fact that he had loaded up "more lethal" ammunition became an issue.



    New Jersey vs. Bias: Man's wife commits suicide with his .357 that he'd loads with light loads (she was recoil conscious.) At issue: the light loads left no to limited gunshot residue on her, suggesting the gun was farther away than it was and that the husband had shot her. They could not test his remaining ammo (it's evidence) and they could not trust his loading log (he would have manufactured the evidence.) Defense had to perform ballistics tests based on the log, and use experts to explain what happened.

  13. #28
    cj
    cj is offline
    Senior Member Array cj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,008
    Darn. I can't recall where I read or heard it (might have been a podcast, video, or article), but Mas Ayoob addressed exactly this question and included a number of actual cases where it had influence (sometimes it was bad, sometimes no difference, but prosecutors DID push it, even if the gun owner did everything 'right').

    Basically, a lot of the argument came down along the lines of trying to convince a jury (of not-really-your-peers) that you know better than the experts at [fill in manufacturer's name here] about firearms. Lighten the trigger on your Glock, and they can pull in a Glock engineer who will be able to go into great detail about how the trigger pull was designed, and why it was weighted the way it was, and the prosecution then has a field day portraying you as a wannabe killer making it a 'hair trigger', etc. etc.

    Does anyone else recall where this might have been?

    The talk has seriously made me reconsider what I carry. Suddenly my P11 with trigger stop and other modifications to make it more user friendly doesn't seem like such a great carry choice any more.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    I don't post here anymore...Sorry
    Posts
    2,333
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    For sure. And don't call your firearm by its nickname--Killer!

    As for the "accidental discharge," my reply to the attorney is, "No accident. I meant to shoot the BG."
    The dangers of a modified firearm do exist; however, they are different from the commonly held beliefs based on willful misunderstanding of the civil courts and criminal law.

    I saw willful misunderstanding because the correct information is available, and easily accessible; but people insist on inventing scenarios and "advice" out of their own ideas and passing them off as the real thing.

    Massad Ayoob is not BSing when he writes about the dangers of a modified firearm.

    He is very clear in his descriptions, but most people simply refuse to accept his input - simple and direct as it may be, preferring much more complicated ideas of their own making without the education & experience to understand what they are talking about, or having any factual basis or experience upon which to found such opinions.

    In simple terms, the problem of an accidental discharge is that it voids your self defense claim.

    Self defense is a justification for an intentional action; one cannot have a "justified accident" and should it be shown to the applicable standard of law in your matter that a weapon was discharged negligently, even if it hit a bad guy during the commission of a crime, it is an unlawful shooting.

    Thus, modifications to the weapon which are commonly accepted to make such weapon easier to discharge negligently under stress may - MAY, be a strike against you, while commonly held modifications that make the weapon easier to operate safely are likely not to be considered such.

    The difference being putting a NY1/3.5 connector into a glock, vice a full on competition trigger setup.

    The first makes the trigger pull crisper, slightly heavier than the original weight with a more pronounced feel. It aids in shooting but does not make the weapon more prone to negligence.

    The second makes the trigger pull very light - lighter than spec for defensive use, and easier to discharge negligently.

    While neither would effect the hypothetical "clean shoot", it may have bearing in a more muddled situation were the questions are asked in terms of what happened, why someone was shot at that point and so forth.

    The cherry wood grips, gold trim and so forth are minutia unworthy of discussion, and those who focus on it are as to people who will wax eloquently about what kind of ketchup is on the table rather than focusing on the rest of the meal.

    In other words...fools.












    But pay me no mind and resume asking about case law and so forth.

    You might use the search function to find a thread on the relevance of case law...but that would be an effort, and I wouldn't want to dissuade you from falling into a circular line of thought spiraling away from any sort of comprehension, either on case law’s relevance to this discussion or in general.


  15. #30
    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Florida's NatureCoast
    Posts
    708
    My understanding is that any mod that makes the weapon easier to fire, ie. lighter trigger, bypassing safety, etc. means that the police have grounds to charge you with intent, which means the difference between manslaughter/murder and a justified shooting. Although, I could be mistaken.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
    -Ruger P345; LCP
    -Mossberg 590A1; Model 42
    -Phoenix Arms Raven

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Getting a gun back after a lawful SD shooting?
    By 1911luver in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: May 1st, 2012, 04:46 AM
  2. Would you pay $600 for defensive firearm training?!?
    By Dgrins in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: February 26th, 2010, 08:03 PM
  3. Bars, alcohol and lawful concealed carry
    By Janq in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: November 21st, 2009, 10:35 PM
  4. Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act
    By JT in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: June 12th, 2005, 09:40 AM

Search tags for this page

firearm modifications

,

handgun modifications

,
modified colt new agent
,

modified firearms

,
modified firearms self defense
,
modified gun for self defense
,

modified gun self defense

,

modified handgun

,

modifying a carry gun

,
modifying a handgun
,

modifying carry gun

,
taurus pt 92 chrome gold cherry
Click on a term to search for related topics.