Why carry a flashlight??? - Page 4

Why carry a flashlight???

This is a discussion on Why carry a flashlight??? within the Related Gear & Equipment forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Homer Certainly, The mere presence of someone in your house, even under castle, is not a deadly threat. If you do not/ ...

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  1. #46
    Ex Member Array Maveri9720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homer
    Certainly,

    The mere presence of someone in your house, even under castle, is not a deadly threat.

    If you do not/ can not identify your target therefore can not identify if he poses a deadly threat, you have no business shooting. For all of this bravado that is being talked about (ie my word against a corpses, Laying them out....) the simple fact is if you shoot someone in the manner you described it is in cold blood.

    If you feel that you must "clear" your own house instead of calling the police and waiting inside a "safe" room with a 12 gauge pointed at the door, carry a light.
    Well, I totally disagree with you on this. I believe if someone illegally breaks into my home, triggers my alarm and is still there after my two big dogs go after them, then they don't just mean to steal a couple things. Even if they were just to break into my house, how can I not fear for my life, or the life of my family?

    I most certainly will not wait until I am at gunpoint or knifepoint to take action. And shooting someone who broke into my house illegally, when I and my family are there, is most certainly not in cold blood. Going outside and shooting a random stranger is cold blood.

    And who said I was Rambo here and wouldn't call the police and just take care of things myself? The first thing I would do, is tell the wife to call the police. Then, give her a weapon and she goes to her safe place. Then I get my weapon and I will go to check out what's going on and protect my dogs. I personally don't want to leave my life and my family's life in the hands of the BG, if I can help it. So to me, sitting in a safe room, hoping the BG or BG's don't break the door down and get shots off before I can do anything about it, waiting for the police to show up, is not something I feel comfortable with. Especially, when the law says I don't have to retreat and I can stand my ground.

    Did some research and here's what I found in Georgia Code about Deadly Force regarding Habitation:

    "That force is used against another person who is not a member of the family or household and who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using such force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred;"

    Nowhere does it say that I had to believe that I was going to be harmed or killed, nor does it say I have to ID the BG with weapons on his person. If I know it isn't my family and he forced his way into my house, I am within my legal rights to use deadly force.


  2. #47
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    besides, if it came down to being a problem, it would be my word against a corpse's. they don't argue back... and it's hard for family to put words in there mouths.
    Unless they can tie you to a post like that. For the love of all that is holy, people, be careful what you say on the Internet. You're a Google search away from losing a court case. (And don't think I don't know I'll get barbecued, myself.)

  3. #48
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    Well, for me, it's pretty easy. I just reach my arm out and if I touch my wife, then everyone is accounted for and time to sling lead.
    And there is, therefore, no need to positively identify your target before firing? I'm sorry, but that's a remarkably stupid and dangerous attitude.

  4. #49
    Ex Member Array Maveri9720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Elmore
    And there is, therefore, no need to positively identify your target before firing? I'm sorry, but that's a remarkably stupid and dangerous attitude.
    Can you tell me why I need to? The only two people who are legally supposed to be in the house are me and my wife. If I can account for her, everyone else is a BG, if my house was broken into.

    Also, read my above post for the use of deadly force when someone forcibly breaks into my house.

  5. #50
    New Member Array Homer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maveri9720
    Well, I totally disagree with you on this. I believe if someone illegally breaks into my home, triggers my alarm and is still there after my two big dogs go after them, then they don't just mean to steal a couple things. Even if they were just to break into my house, how can I not fear for my life, or the life of my family?

    Be that as it may, there is a vast difference between having no duty to retreat and shooting blindly at an unknown. BTW if your two dogs are going after them how are you not going to hit the dogs w/o some form of illumination?

    I most certainly will not wait until I am at gunpoint or knifepoint to take action. And shooting someone who broke into my house illegally, when I and my family are there, is most certainly not in cold blood. Going outside and shooting a random stranger is cold blood.

    I will not wait either. However, there is a vast difference between shooting someone coming at you with a knife or gun and shooting at them in the dark with no visual verification. If you do not know what you are shooting at , you are negligent at best, cold blooded at worst.

    And who said I was Rambo here and wouldn't call the police and just take care of things myself? The first thing I would do, is tell the wife to call the police. Then, give her a weapon and she goes to her safe place. Then I get my weapon and I will go to check out what's going on and protect my dogs. I personally don't want to leave my life and my family's life in the hands of the BG, if I can help it. So to me, sitting in a safe room, hoping the BG or BG's don't break the door down and get shots off before I can do anything about it, waiting for the police to show up, is not something I feel comfortable with. Especially, when the law says I don't have to retreat and I can stand my ground.

    That is what a safe room is for. Mine contains a deadbolted exterior grade door, my glock (equipped with a flashlight) my body armor, my shotgun and a cellphone. I equip it this way so I don't have to go out and attempt to clear a dark residence possibly containing some otherhuman(s) . What I don't know or can't see can kill me and I for one am not going to take uneeded risks. Again, not retreating, standing your ground and blindly shooting at the unknown are totally different things.

    Did some research and here's what I found in Georgia Code about Deadly Force regarding Habitation:

    "That force is used against another person who is not a member of the family or household and who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using such force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred;"

    What if it was a neighbor with dementia? or a drunk college student? or ..??? Good enough reason to drop them without verifying? I don't think so.

    Nowhere does it say that I had to believe that I was going to be harmed or killed, nor does it say I have to ID the BG with weapons on his person. If I know it isn't my family and he forced his way into my house, I am within my legal rights to use deadly force.
    You sound almost set and ready to kill. You also sound like you need to get some more training and stop playing lawyer. Guns should be used only against a threat of deadly force or deadly force itself. an intruder in your home is a situation that is terrifying and one that we all never hope to face, but killing first , asking questions later is irresponsible and stupid.
    Last edited by Homer; August 6th, 2006 at 01:27 PM.

  6. #51
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    Can you tell me why I need to?
    Because YOU MUST POSITIVELY VERIFY EACH AND EVERY TARGET BEFORE YOU FIRE.

    The nature of a lethal force scenario is unpredictability. You cannot account for every variable and you cannot walk into it thinking you know everything. People shoot themselves with regularity because they were absolutely, postively certain the gun was unloaded. It is a cardinal rule of firearms safety: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET. In a low-light scenario, it is simply common sense to have access to a flashlight.

    Now, I don't care if that light is on the gun or off the gun. I don't care if you use the Harries, the Rogers, the Ayoob, or the strap-your-light-to-your-forehead technique. You will, however, by all that is good and holy, make an effort to positively identify the target in low light unless you're an irresponsible, trigger-happy, recklessly negligent shooter.

  7. #52
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    Maveri9720...a number of very knowledgable pistoleros have voiced that a flashlight is a surefire (no pun intended) method of verifying your target prior to discharging your firearm. There are countless scenarios as to why a flashlight would benefit a private citizen (I.E....walking at night to your car or at home when the electricity goes out) as there are scenarios that an LEO would need a flashlight. There's a reason why NYPD mandates constant carrying of flashlights for it Members of Service....they go into darkened buildings all of the time....granted they "look for trouble" in order to put an end to it...but any one of us can find our selves in a situation where it's bright and sunny outdoors and we then find ourselves in a dark hallway the next. As we all know, the criminal element will exploit, when possible, situation such as this....to gain an advantage. You need to be prepared to take it away from them!

    If you are committed to not carrying a flashlight, so be it. Many of us are committed to carry one....and do, for the reasons we are articulating. I hope that you do not find yourself in a situation you never thought of where you need a flashlight.....of course I extend that "hope" to all of us as none of us (I hope) wish to find ourselves in a "feces hitting the rotating oscillator" situation.
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947

  8. #53
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    Train with your light?

    Great discussion! I personally carry a small xenon light when I know I might encounter a night-time/dark situation. I often leave it at home when not expecting such situations because of the realestate in my pockets and belt is scarce. I might be persuaded to change my tune though. Anyhow, I wonder how many actually train with a light? Have you ever done a night shoot as some have already mentioned? What do you do to train with your light? Where do you train for night time encounters? What tips can you offer?
    I'll keep my freedom, my liberty, and my guns. You can keep the change.

  9. #54
    Member Array PaulBk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skunkworks
    Anyhow, I wonder how many actually train with a light?
    I train monthly with a light

    Have you ever done a night shoot as some have already mentioned?
    Yes, quite a few. Statistics say night is the most likely time for trouble. The local IDPA club even has a low light / no light bay.

    What do you do to train with your light?
    Same stuff I do without the light

    Where do you train for night time encounters?
    The outdoor club I belong to allows shooting from 8am - 10pm. Here the NW it is easy to find times when the sun is down and the range is open. I also train indoors. I can't turn off all the lights, but it is dark enough to use the light to illuminate the target out to about 10 yds

    What tips can you offer?
    Practice, practice, practice

    -PB
    Last edited by PaulBk; August 6th, 2006 at 02:29 PM.
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  10. #55
    Ex Member Array Maveri9720's Avatar
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    Homer,

    Yes, you are right in the fact that I need training, but are completely wrong in the fact that I need to stop "playing" lawyer. Knowing the law is of the utmost importance in utilizing deadly force. You could train 24/7/365 and be the best in the world, but if you don't know what the law is, then you will go to jail. So I think that is pretty ignorant of you to say stop learning the law.

    Secondly, again, you are vastly reaching for some sort of defense when you imply that a neighbor with dementia or drunk college kid has broken into my home and that's why I should ID them first. Shining a flashlight on a drunk person, whom I don't know, or a neighbor w/dementia is not going to tell me that they are drunk or have mental problems, so that goes right out the window and again I am left seeing someone I don't know, who has broken into my house and is still in my house when I find them. I have read numerous times where neighbors have robbed neighbors and even killed each other, so just b/c they are my neighbor does not mean they do not pose a threat to me and my family.

    As to not hitting my dogs, I will be aiming for a headshot for my first shot, unless I can clearly make out where my dogs are. And just to state, my house is not a tomb of complete darkness. I have a street light on my property that lights my house fairly well inside, not to mention the light that comes from various appliances, electronics and also my LED screens for my alarm control panels. So I can and have manuevered through my house at night w/o lights and am able to see quite well.

    I am sure we can argue all day about having to ID someone first before shooting them, so I will agree to disagree with you on this. My wife is the only person legally allowed in my house, anyone else is a BG and I will treat them as such. And the law is on my side with this also.

    And may I also state that I am no more set to kill than anyone else on this forum. I hope I never have to use my weapons other than at the range, as I do for each and every one of you. And to add, this is all just speculation and hope as to what I would like to do. When the time comes if it does, I may do any number of things. Being prior military and the training I have received through them makes me understand the severity of using deadly force. I am not just some guy who decided to get a gun and shoot someone at the drop of a hat. I know that I have to and hope I will do any and everything in my power to protect my family and myself, but in no way, shape or form hope I EVER find myself in that kind of situation, b/c none of us can safely say, unless presented with that situation, what we would do. We all can only speculate and train and learn.

    SRFL,

    I understand your comments, but you cannot compare the average CC with LEO's. They are mandated to carry alot of things, including handcuffs, etc. Just b/c they have to carry flashlights, doesn't mean that the average CC needs to carry flashlights. They are tasked with going to the worst of the worst places and I totally understand them carrying. They also have a duty belt equipped for everything they carry. I don't have that luxury and thus the reason I started this thread. I have limited carry space and want to only carry essentials.

    If people say that carrying a flashlight is convenient for those rare times when you need a flashlight for when the power goes out, or finding something you dropped in a dark area, then why not extend it out and carry a leatherman for the times you might need a pair of pliers, or when you might need to unscrew something, etc? Why not carry a first aid kit, in case you cut yourself somewhere and there isn't anything around? How about some spare food and water if you get lost somewhere and can't find your way out? Some matches to start a fire? Some signal flares? A GPS unit? You get the picture. I only want the essentials: CCW, extra mag, knife, OC Spray, cell phone, wallet, keys. I have a longer range deadly weapon, short range deadly weapon, non-lethal weapon and a phone.

    Anything else added has to be totally essential to me for everyday use to validate carrying more stuff. Kinda hard to conceal carry when you have a belt/pockets jam packed full of stuff and bulging out.

    Just my opinion and thoughts though. YMMV.
    Last edited by Maveri9720; August 6th, 2006 at 03:46 PM.

  11. #56
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    This thread is starting to get pretty warm...lets cool it down and keep it that way
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

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  12. #57
    New Member Array Homer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maveri9720
    Knowing the law is of the utmost importance in utilizing deadly force. You could train 24/7/365 and be the best in the world, but if you don't know what the law is, then you will go to jail. So I think that is pretty ignorant of you to say stop learning the law.
    Never said not to learn the law, just stop trying to make it fir your view. I am quite sure your DA and your PD have a vastlty different view of shooting an unknown in the dark.

    Secondly, again, you are vastly reaching for some sort of defense when you imply that a neighbor with dementia or drunk college kid has broken into my home and that's why I should ID them first. Shining a flashlight on a drunk person, whom I don't know, or a neighbor w/dementia is not going to tell me that they are drunk or have mental problems, so that goes right out the window and again I am left seeing someone I don't know, who has broken into my house and is still in my house when I find them. I have read numerous times where neighbors have robbed neighbors and even killed each other, so just b/c they are my neighbor does not mean they do not pose a threat to me and my family.

    I am not reaching, It has happened. Shining a light on someone at least gives you the oppurtunity to identify and not shoot someone who doesn't need to be ventilated.

    As to not hitting my dogs, I will be aiming for a headshot for my first shot, unless I can clearly make out where my dogs are. And just to state, my house is not a tomb of complete darkness. I have a street light on my property that lights my house fairly well inside, not to mention the light that comes from various appliances, electronics and also my LED screens for my alarm control panels. So I can and have manuevered through my house at night w/o lights and am able to see quite well.
    A head shot on your first shot with two large dogs attacking your target in complete darkness?


    I am sure we can argue all day about having to ID someone first before shooting them, so I will agree to disagree with you on this. My wife is the only person legally allowed in my house, anyone else is a BG and I will treat them as such. And the law is on my side with this also.

    As another poster has stated, one of the fundamental rules of owning a gun is to KNOW what or who you are shooting at. The Castle doctrine is a great law but, IT IS NOT CARTE BLANCHE TO SHOOT IF YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING AT!

    And may I also state that I am no more set to kill than anyone else on this forum. I hope I never have to use my weapons other than at the range, as I do for each and every one of you. And to add, this is all just speculation and hope as to what I would like to do. When the time comes if it does, I may do any number of things. Being prior military and the training I have received through them makes me understand the severity of using deadly force. I am not just some guy who decided to get a gun and shoot someone at the drop of a hat. I know that I have to and hope I will do any and everything in my power to protect my family and myself, but in no way, shape or form hope I EVER find myself in that kind of situation, b/c none of us can safely say, unless presented with that situation, what we would do. We all can only speculate and train and learn.

    SRFL,

    I understand your comments, but you cannot compare the average CC with LEO's. They are mandated to carry alot of things, including handcuffs, etc. Just b/c they have to carry flashlights, doesn't mean that the average CC needs to carry flashlights. They are tasked with going to the worst of the worst places and I totally understand them carrying. They also have a duty belt equipped for everything they carry. I don't have that luxury and thus the reason I started this thread. I have limited carry space and want to only carry essentials.

    If people say that carrying a flashlight is convenient for those rare times when you need a flashlight for when the power goes out, or finding something you dropped in a dark area, then why not extend it out and carry a leatherman for the times you might need a pair of pliers, or when you might need to unscrew something, etc? Why not carry a first aid kit, in case you cut yourself somewhere and there isn't anything around? How about some spare food and water if you get lost somewhere and can't find your way out? Some matches to start a fire? Some signal flares? A GPS unit? You get the picture. I only want the essentials: CCW, extra mag, knife, OC Spray, cell phone, wallet, keys. I have a longer range deadly weapon, short range deadly weapon, non-lethal weapon and a phone.
    Number of a good lawyer.....Just Kidding
    Anything else added has to be totally essential to me for everyday use to validate carrying more stuff. Kinda hard to conceal carry when you have a belt/pockets jam packed full of stuff and bulging out.
    Just my opinion and thoughts though. YMMV.
    Just remember that owning a gun is a grave responsibility and taking a human life without knowing who you are shooting at is not only negligent but makes all responsible gun owners look bad.

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Thanks Team American! It is a bit warm in here!!! I would like to add a point that should keep things cool. Everyone's from a different state and faces different laws. A VERY IMPORTANT thing to do is talk to a lawyer!!! How does this relate to a flashlight? Different states have different thresholds of what is a good shoot or bad shoot in a self defense situation. I live in FL with a very strong castle doctrine and no retreat required law. However upon talking with a criminal defense lawyer familiar with the new laws some of the things I thought I saw in the new laws are not so cut and dried. I'd suggest VERY strongly that anyone getting or possesing a permit or home defense weapon make the same call. Many of these guys will give you 15 to 30 minutes on the phone free. It might well keep you not only protected but out of jail and hopefully free from financial ruin.

    We have a very serious responsability to know what the law really says, not what we think it might say, for our area. I discussed situations in specific detail and got very specific answers in return including defense in the dark and in my home. It was a real eye opener even in a state as pro defense as ours. Knowledge, skill and training will only help us function better but make sure that you actually learn the law from an expert, not a forum on the internet! When you truly know the all facts then you can make the right decisions, including wether or not you need to ID that person coming at you in the dark or in your house.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  14. #59
    Ex Member Array Maveri9720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr
    Thanks Team American! It is a bit warm in here!!! I would like to add a point that should keep things cool. Everyone's from a different state and faces different laws. A VERY IMPORTANT thing to do is talk to a lawyer!!! How does this relate to a flashlight? Different states have different thresholds of what is a good shoot or bad shoot in a self defense situation. I live in FL with a very strong castle doctrine and no retreat required law. However upon talking with a criminal defense lawyer familiar with the new laws some of the things I thought I saw in the new laws are not so cut and dried. I'd suggest VERY strongly that anyone getting or possesing a permit or home defense weapon make the same call. Many of these guys will give you 15 to 30 minutes on the phone free. It might well keep you not only protected but out of jail and hopefully free from financial ruin.

    We have a very serious responsability to know what the law really says, not what we think it might say, for our area. I discussed situations in specific detail and got very specific answers in return including defense in the dark and in my home. It was a real eye opener even in a state as pro defense as ours. Knowledge, skill and training will only help us function better but make sure that you actually learn the law from an expert, not a forum on the internet! When you truly know the all facts then you can make the right decisions, including wether or not you need to ID that person coming at you in the dark or in your house.

    Thanks for the quality info. I will definitely have to look into calling around and see what info I can be given.

    Homer,

    I am not going to bother anymore, b/c no matter what I write, you always go back to the same things and I don't appreciate your disrespect.

    Thanks everyone else for your point of views and your opinions and advice/info.

  15. #60
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    And on that note, it looks like this thread has gone full circle...
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

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