Having been sprayed with, and used, various pepper sprays... I would use either. From experience, SHU measurement is fine and dandy on paper, but when the spray hits the face, effectivity is really based on the recipient. Some people, such as myself, are almost instantly incapacitated. Other are not affected at all. Others fall in between. From use in fights, traffic stops, domestic disturbances etc, I have found that when it works, it works well and when it doesnt, well, you better have a plan B. Spray incapacitation is as mythical as "knockdown power" and bullets. Pick one from a reputable brand and roll with it.

As far as wether to use a stream or cone sprayer... I would use stream. In my experience, cone sprays atomize too much causing everyone to be affected. Yes they cover alarger area, but streams are direct to the face allowing for 100% contact. The most "effective" spray I have found, as far as ability to contact a target, consisted of a heavy foam like spray with a dye agent that stained skin yellow red, allowing for easy identification of targets even if it washed off. For the life of me I cannot remember what we used now...

 

Have to agree 100%. Been there.

 

That makes sense. Fox or sites that sell it stress its overall effectiveness. There was one testimonial by some police officer that claimed that it has never failed in many uses. And I kind of get that vibe from many of its proponents. That it will mess up anyone, even resistant people. However, I did read one or two reviews that were disappointed with its effect, that it was not effective in their situation the way they expected.

I still would like to get an idea of what people think of these two overall, but as far as plan B goes, if you are a civilian, what do you think would be a good plan B besides/in addition to running?
This would assume total failure of the spray and the person just continues coming at you.

 

I like OC/CN/UV spray mix . I am not a cop/lawyer but as I remember some people just are not effect at all by pepper spray either genticly or they have been sprayed so much it does not really bother them Phenacyl chloride on the other hand is not a good day at all. Yes CN is not as fast acting as OC but when they are mixed I really hate to sprayed by it imop.

Also look at the kimber peper blaster or the cpx or the such pepper laucher . I say thouse two as they fired peper spray either by gun powder or air at eithr 70 or 300 mph little if any blow back and I dont know about you but I rather not get hit by pepper spray going 300 mph ...


But back to your question the higher the heat the better . And of the two both are great . I would say Fox as they have the flip top laucher I like I dont carry the ones when you turn the button to fire I have that nearly casued problems too many times ..

Also I dont know waht state your are in but some will not let you buy OC if it is over a certain strangeth or oz size bottled or you can not buy it online etc. So bear that in mind


And if you ask plane b I like blackjacks which are lead weights that are spring loaded they will end a fight with one blow in most cases . But they tend to not be legal in most places to even own so if we are talking I dont have a gun and spray fails I would used a taser the real police kind that tends to work ... Or if I have the training a karmbit knife

But bear in mind that some of the older spray were alcohol based and will set someone on fire if you spray them with it then taser them. So bear that in mind

 

The first spray I ever carried was a sabre 3 in 1 a long time ago. I think (didn't know at the time though) that it had a .33 MC OC strength which I think is on the weak side in terms of OC. I remember test spraying it in a sink and taking a smell it did not seem strong at all. It turned me off to the OC/CN combos. But, I like the idea of it, if one doesn't get you the other will. I have read some good reviews of this type of spray.

 

From what I read they are both good brands. The police around here use Fox I do believe. I have a 2 oz can of the cone spray, foam and training spray for the Fox. The training spray comes in all different size and spray patterns, same formula minus the pepper. This is a good idea to see how far your type will spray and what size pattern.

 

% means nothing. Look at the scoville heat index rating for the OC. That tells you how hot it is.

 

Based on my research what I have learned is that Scoville Heat Units (SHU) and OC percentage mean little separately though both numbers may be able to give you an idea.

What really matters is total major capsaicinoids % (MC). For example, SHU and OC percentage are I think I read not even put on bear sprays, the law only cares about total caps (MC). That's what creates heat.

For example, you can claim that a pepper spray has an SHU of 4,000,000. But the only way you can really claim MC percentage, which are the hot parts of the pepper, is to actually test it with lab equipment.

Shu-wise, there are two types of shu. One that goes in the formula, one that comes out.

In the sabre red case, what comes out is 200,000 shu, What comes out of fox is about 106,000 shu
This is because sabre has 10% oc at 2,000,000 shu resulting in 200,000 out and 1.33% MC confirmed by test.
Fox has 2% OC at 5,300,000 shu resulting in 106,000 shu out and .71% at best MC.

That said, there may be other things as prev. described that make a spray strong and effective beyond MC or any numbers.

 

This seems to come up every week. I have been hosed with Guardian, Sabre red and Fox Labs.
I could fight through the "Sabre" fairly easily, but the "Guardian" (spray) did the job, but the Fox Labs 2% 5.3M SHU made me cry & blind.

In LE, you cannot carry it until you have been properly trained (hosed) with the brand you carry. I use the 2 oz Fox Labs & do not care if it has UV dye or foam.

The old 'mace', military 'CS' and 'CN' gas is near worthless, even as an additive. The Fox Labs 2% is very handy for vicious dogs.... don't have to wait until you get bit.

 

sorry double post

 

That seems to be the majority opinion just reading around. I guess I feel a little uncertain about Fox for a few reasons.
For one they oddly don't post MC numbers on 5.3 which is the standard and state nozzle heat is unimportant which doesn't seem totally accurate. Also, it seems that they use a cheap degreaser in their formula (TCE) that is somewhat controversial. That doesn't sound very premium. I wonder how much of its effectiveness is solely due to that.

I guess in the end if it works it works.

I'm thinking maybe carry the Fox and keep the Sabre Red at home this way I'll minimize exposure to any chemicals (besides pepper) at home being in a relatively closed space.

 

I decided to "test" a few pepper sprays that I bought just to see what they do in terms of being sprayed in a semi closed space and how they affect the environment (I don't think I am going to test Fox based on what i have read other than to give it a test shot outside). The first one I tested was some brand called "Back-off", which claims it is 15% OC rated at 4,000,000 SHU. No MC stated on it. It's made by the same people who make Whoop-ass. I sprayed a half second shot of this in a bathroom sink. It created a very strong burning effect in the throat and eyes instantly. It was a little scary and actually hurt my throat briefly. Opened all the windows, took about a half hour to clear.

Next up was a hot pink Mace brand rated at 10% OC at 1.45 caps. I thought for sure this would be killer but it did very little. It sprayed white and only when I put my nose right up to it did i get a moderate burning sensation. Next up was Sabre Red, the 10% 0.67 cap version. I was looking forward to testing this one. This was to my surprise very weak. I could put my nose right up to a good shot in the sink and it just smelled like peppers. I would have thought it should have been stronger and gave me some kind of burn. I'll have to test the 1.33 version when I get a hold of it and see how that goes.

Am i correct in assuming that the way the spray affects the immediate surroundings can be a clue to its strength and effect if you were hit in the face?

 

I decided to "test" a few pepper sprays that I bought just to see what they do ...

I'd love to see a double-blind study done with a couple thousand folks, one that seeks to find how it works across a standard population. No other way to tease out how it varies from person to person, other than that. "Double-blind" study ... ironic name for what'd have to be done to get it right. Zaaaap!

 

When I was on the job we used a OC/CS formulation and when we were sprayed to be certified to carry it's effects were immediate and severe.

Whatever you decide on using make sure you practice drawing it from your carry location and spraying it at a specific target.

 

I've always carried Sabre Red, the weaker formulation, with the twist top. I'm very used to it - it feels like part of my hand. Little disappointed with that test. Don't know why I didn't do that sooner.

Maybe I'll take a look again at the 3-1 formula. The one I know is from a very long time ago and I think it was actually the weakest defense version. There is a video on youtube of someone getting sprayed with Sabre 3-1 and he has the worst reaction I've ever seen to any spray.

 

I was also looking at fox but i ended up buying a relative the Kimber pepper blaster II.

 

Remora makes a nice holster for that too ..

Also they make a water version for it for training i think maybe look into that

 

I did a little more testing. The Sabre red 1.33 is definitely hotter and burns a lot more than the weaker version but the Fox 5.3 is on a whole other level in my opinion. It's super strong and well made..now this is a weapon. I've decided to go with Fox and to keep the key chain version on me and keep a 2 ounce at home. Both streaming versions. I have a small container of back off as a back up because that also seems unusually strong but doubt I'll need it. Thanks for the opinions and advice guys.

 

Tensy,

You've definitely done your homework on these brands, which is great. Keep in mind that a few other things come in to play with some of the testing you've done. Stream patterns will have less of an effect on the lungs and breathing (in general) than cone patterns. Also, some brands are water-based (saber) vs say, oil-based or solvent based(fox). You are exactly right about the MC% being the most important determination when it comes to heat bearing. Let me know if you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer.

Holliday

 

Before I retired my 30 years in LE I had been issued CS, CN, and in the end pepper spray. It all worked good but I pay more attention to how the release trigger on the can is. Some are just plain better at getting into action faster then others plus the small cans don't have much in them. So sometimes you do have to fire multi times if you miss. The pepper spray has to hit the face area to be effective. Get the biggest can ur comfortable with just in case you have more then one person ur having to fire upon. We all had to be sprayed with it to carry it. All you can say afterwards is that it works. After the X-26 stun gun came out that is what we used abt all the time because after u got ur actor arrested u didn't have to detox him as in gas or pepper spray. After pepper spray was issued to the officer in the field the tear gas stuff such as CS, and CN varieties were only used in crowd control applications or herding up the mobs at a large incident. I was also a general instructor that was certified in teaching these classes and also for recertifing officers the following year. Granted that you only had to be sprayed the first time. We always had medical staff at each initial spaying just in case of any reactions. Hopes this helps.

 

Hi Holliday.

Do you have any opinions about Sabre Red 1.33 versus Fox 5.3? Fox from my understanding has an MC of about .7% at best but it seems at least as strong if not stronger than the Sabre Red 1.33%, at least in terms of how it effects me in a semi enclosed area. The weaker Sabre Red I had (which i have since sprayed out and dumped) at .67 on paper is similar in strength to Fox 5.3, yet the Sabre was weak and the Fox seems slightly stronger than the 1.33 % version. How does fox achieve that? Do they use a better quality pepper or is it the solvent or a combination of that?

Also, are all MC's the same? I think i read that some caps are weaker than others and if you have more of those caps the formula is not as hot.

One last thing. I'm trying to figure if a spray is mislabeled. On it, it says 15% OC, 4,000,000 derivative SHU (which makes me think, yeah right, though it does seem very strong). In the ingredients lists it states OC 10% (by wt). Does that make sense?

 

Tensy,

I have carried both so I do have experience with both. They are both from very reputable manufacturers, but they are different. I always prefer cone for civilian use,and for whatever reason Sabre doesn't make very many in that spray pattern. They have the Spitfire, but it is their weaker formula (.67% MC's). If you are comparing Sabre's keychain units vs Fox Labs keychain units, then I would go with Sabre. Why? Well, if you choosing a steam spray pattern, which is what they both are at that size, then go for the higher MC's(Sabre). Fox does have the solvent which is supposed to open the pores of the skin to allow the formula to take hold quicker by stripping the skin of its natural oils. That said, it's hard to determine which is "hotter" by how it affects your lungs during testing. In truth, the propellant alone could have you gagging. I've trained with countless inert trainers of pepper spray and always start choking because of the propellant. Inerts are usually just distilled water and propellant.

There are three major capsaicinoids. The percentage is what matters. Usually expressed in total MC%. If it is say, 2% like in bear spray, that is a number that can be trusted. The higher the % of MC's, the hotter the spray. The % shown on the can is the total of all three MC's combined.

As far as the 15% spray you are referring to. It does sound mislabeled. It's either 15% of 10%, can't be both. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. I love this stuff!

 

Thanks for the info. Also, welcome to the forum from Georgia.

 

Honestly, you're trying too hard. Fox Labs 5.3 and the Sabre Red are both quality sprays. (I prefer Top Cop from ALS myself... but there isn't much difference.) In the end all of the top tier stuff works about the same. It is super hot and the difference in time it takes a person to react would be measured in tenths of a second. In the end you just have to hope that they aren't one of the people that isn't bothered by OC or one of the people that simply gets even more angry and fights through the burn. If one of them will work the other will as well. If it won't, well I hope you have other options.

 

I sprayed a couple cats fighting in my front yard a few weeks ago with Fox 5.3. It was a long, miserable day, I was unhappy and they were completely oblivious to me walking by. It was pretty much straight out of a movie. I walked by them, whipped out the pepper spray and hosed them down without looking. Unfortunately, I caught a little bit myself. It had my eyes and throat burning for about ten minutes, and my wife got the same just from the residual spray that I brought in the door with me.

I got nowhere near a full blast and I was pretty uncomfortable. For the record, I like my spicy foods, I don't have asthma or any allergies and campfire smoke doesn't bother me if it's blowing right on me, even when everyone else is hacking and coughing. I'm not going to say Fox Labs will work on everyone, but I think it'd sure as heck work on me.

 

^^^LMBO^^^^^^^^^^^^


We use Fox.
I have read enough and heard enough that it will work.

I will not be "testing it out".

 

Great information thanks.

Actually, the Sabre Red I got is a 1.8 ounce 1.33 MC cone spray. It seems pretty hot. I wasn't able to find a 1.33 keychain version at the moment. I only had the .67 version which i tossed because it does seem very weak. In addition to it not offering any intense smell, like every other one I tried, when I shot it all out, it got on my finger and I rubbed my eye, not realizing it got on my finger. It stung but was not all the bad and faded after 10 minutes without me needing water or anything. I've read a few bad reviews of spitfire saying the formula failed to subdue. I don't trust it.
I've read it argued both ways with spray pattern though I think Fox themselves recommends cone/fog for civilian defense. I think based on what I have though I'll go with the fox keychain though the SR 1.8 is carryable too, I just prefer the keychain form, my hand is very used to it. Honestly, if fox is faster acting like many say, then that's really what I want. I think my aim is ok.

Yeah I thought it was mislabeled. Not a good sign I suppose. Sloppy. Seems well made and strong otherwise. I guess carrying some relatively no-name brand is not a good idea in general. I'll put those on the side and stick to Fox and Sabre Red 1.33.

 

I was also looking at a non lethal (read bullet), alternative to add to my bag of defensive carry items. No one has mentioned them yet, but my nephew gave me a unit made by UDAP. Claim 15% OC and 3% MC. Don't know about effectiveness yet (I will not self-test,BTDT), but the guy whom makes it is a bear attack survivor. Would think he has a good reason, to make a good product (doesn't want others to suffer his fate (being mauled). Feedback appreciated.

 

Below is a site that reviewed UDAP. The author tests Fox, Sabre Red (possibly just the weak one but one of the models he mentioned is 1.33), UDAP and wildfire by spraying them on his arm and smelling them. He decided Fox is the best with Wildfire close in terms of heat/skin burn and respiratory effects.

UDAP:

Pepper Spray Reviews: UDAP Clip on Commander Review (15% OC, 3,000,000 SHU)


WildFire:

Pepper Spray Reviews: Wildfire Keychain Unit Review (18% OC, 3,000,000 SHU)


Fox:

Pepper Spray Reviews: Fox Labs (2% OC, 5,300,000 SHU)


He didn't like Sabre Red at all for heat or respiratory effects (at least the .67 version though it sounds like he had one at 1.33). I agree with him here.
http://ocsprayreviews.blogspot.com/2012/01/sabre-red-reviewed.html

 

Nothing is 100%, but the beauty of OC is that it works because of inflammation and not because of pain like CS/CN. It's also oil-based. So when it's in a cone or fog spray pattern it really lingers. That's why bear spray is always in a cone/fog delivery.

Holliday

 

I guess that's another thing. The cone spray I think will be more susceptible to wind and spreads around wider and I really don't want to inhale that Fox stuff if I can avoid it. I figure the stream will have less chance of doing that. This way I can do a short burst spray, adjust slightly if necessary, spray a little more and back away to the side and exit. But I'll keep the cone idea in mind.