May 29th, 2007 12:56 AM
The only thing I've not seen noted in this thread is that a laser - just like a flashlight - gives some info to the BG. Not much mind you... but some. If you're going to have it on your gun, qualify (or practice regularly) with it. Shoot a course of fire with it, without it, with it on command. Watch your basic marksmanship. Just because the magic red dot is there doesn't mean that's where your bullet is going. I've seen some really great shooters lose all semblance of trigger control just because of that red dot.
My $0.02 worth... and probably not worth that.
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"Cogito, ergo armatum sum"
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May 29th, 2007 02:19 AM
I'm still waiting for my P229 CT to arrive. We shall see.
Why is it that you always find things at the last place you looked?
Because when you find something-you stop looking-Mooch
May 29th, 2007 02:25 AM
I am pro laser & especially for folks with various eye related problems or bi & tri focals. The only thing I don't like about them is the price.
They are also very helpful for shooters with cross dominance problems.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
May 29th, 2007 06:54 AM
I totally agree..........and I love my Crimson Trace grips.
Originally Posted by QKShooter
"The story you are about to hear is true; the names have been changed to protect the innocent."
May 29th, 2007 10:43 AM
Really? I happen to have that very problem... always forces me to close one eye to shoot, which isn't the best idea (lowers tactical awareness). What experiences have you had?
Originally Posted by QKShooter
May 29th, 2007 11:46 AM
I've never used them, therefore I can't say I'm entirely for or against them.
However, when I started working at the gun shop I now work at I have seen quite a few people come into our range with them.
I saw one guy shoot EXTREMELY well with his laser and when he came out of the range I commented to that effect and asked him what he thought of laser grips for self defense and instead of giving me an opinion one way or the other he asked me a question.
"How often do you shoot?" he asked.
"Weekly." I answered.
"And do you sight shoot or have you used a laser?"
"Sight shooting only."
"Then don't get a laser." He said.
I was surprised and asked him why and he explained that people who are used to sight shooting will, in a time of stress and panic, default to how they've always shot, meaning their sights. First, they may even forget to even turn the laser on and therefor it was unnecessary to begin with but when the bullets start to fly and they are naturally looking for their sights the red dot can be very distracting.
We have several guns at our shop that have lasers on them. I have taken them out and looked at them and even without being in a stressful situation, when I bring the gun into a ready position, I can't help but look at the front sight.
Now, some of the benefits listed above seem very viable and should well be considered. Yes, I think they could be a benefit if forced to shoot from an awkward position or around a corner or from under a table or any other means or for people with vision problems, but I also agree that they can be a distraction and also be relied upon too much and taken for granted.
I guess I'm with Sixto. First you have to decide why you think you need them and then decide from there.
May 29th, 2007 12:32 PM
I have commented on lasers many times - I like them - but only treating them as adjuncts. NOT primary by default.
If my laser fails I am not compromized - but if I am able to use it such that while pointing or sighting the dot ''happens'' to show - I have an advantage. It is that simple.
I will invariably train at the range with no laser but, very likely finish a session with it. Cost is a big disincentive for sure - I splurged big time when I got all mine (all 6!).
My advice tho to prospective users is always going to be that of not ever buying these and fitting for use as primary. Final caveat - they make for excellent tools with fastdraw dry fire.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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May 29th, 2007 02:12 PM
This is exactly why lasers make good training aids! He should use the laser to improve his triger control. I was recently watching a program on the Outdoor Channel and it showed a self-defense instructor using his pistol - with a CT laser installed - to fire at targets from behind his back, while lying on the ground and in extreme low light conditions by simply watching the red dot of the laser.
Originally Posted by incredipete
Lasers shouldn't replace iron sights and good shooting practices, but they have definate advantages in many situations, like using a good scope on a hunting rifle.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
June 7th, 2007 04:18 PM
Two additional points in favor that I haven't seen yet: By the way, I can't take credit for these. Both came from police instructors.
First point, Try this: Have a friend stand in front of you at defensive engagement range (3 to ten yards or so). Take your preferred firing stance (no need to be holding an actual weapon, just point your index finger and sight along the top of it). Now, with your sights aligned at your eye level can you see through your hands and weapon to observe his hands? His waist where a gun might be holstered? The jacket pocket that could contain his weapon? If you have a laser-equipped weapon, you can put the dot on him while still holding your firearm low enough to keep all his torso and arms in view. Also, you won't tend to "tunnel" (focus only on what lies beyond the front sight) as much, which gives you an increased chance to notice if there is any additional threat in the area.
Second point: A bad guy (or worse, two bad guys) surrenders to you when he sees your weapon. Now you now have to control him for however long it takes until law enforcement arrives. Keeping your sights aligned over time can make your weapon and arms HEAVY, and you can get shaky hands and exhaustion symptoms as the adrenaline from the initial confrontation works its way out of your system. With a laser equipped gun you always can tell whether you are still on target and you can relax your stance without losing point of aim. If you have a thirty minute wait, this could be a decisive factor in allowing you to maintain your safety and control of the situation.
As already posted, it's another tool in your box. I figure it's better to have it and not use it, than to need it but not have it.
June 7th, 2007 05:37 PM
I have them on my SIG P229 and P220. Wouldn't leave home without them. Several great reasons, but here are two:
#1: CT claims 400% improvement in ability to hit the target. Street results are slim, as reported in March 2007 issue of Combat Handguns, but encouraging: 8 incidents, 10 targets, 26 shots fired, 24 hits. That's a 92% hit percentage, compared to 20 or 30% in actual shootings with iron sights. Far too big an improvement to dismiss or ignore, even with only 8 reported incidents. If those numbers hold over time, it doesn't take much imagination to speculate that there may come a time when police and civilian gun owners could be considered legally negligent NOT to have a laser on a gun carried for self defense. Not saying I support that conclusion, just reading the legal tea leaves.
#2: With older eyes, bifocals, no dominant eye and other vision issues, I can't see the front sight with both eyes open. My eye doctor, a competitive shooter, says I'm stuck and it isn't possible to practice or exercise my eyes to fix it. Prescription: get a laser or dot sight. So I did.
Some prefer not to rely on gizmos that might fail when you need them. Pilots in the early part of the last century whined and complained about the fancy instruments being added to their cockpits. Instruments that could fail when needed. Today we won't let them fly without their gizmos, and we're all far safer for it.
Last edited by markand; June 7th, 2007 at 05:44 PM.
June 7th, 2007 07:03 PM
No flaming intended, but if you shoot just fine then I think that there may be a problem. It is very accurate past 7 yards. I qualify with a 442 twice a year and my gun is easily accurate out to 25 yards and in without a laser. My J is new and I may get a CT on it in the future. Who am I kidding, of course I will.
Originally Posted by HnKuspDude
When I certified as a Low Light Instructor we did a lot of shooting with a Lasermax equipped XD. If you have a well grounded platform and all of the basic sighting principles are in place (be honest with yourself) then a laser is a great tool. If you are not consistently accurate with traditional sights then you should not have a laser. If you are an Instructor then you MUST have one as you can more easily diagnose shooter inadequacies.
In my experience I have found that the majority of my Officers that have lasers rely on them entirely too much. To the point of some not being able to qualify without them or their scores dropping drastically. My instructors on the other hand are absolutely lethal with them because of their experience, solid sighting and stance. We shoot qual courses with lasermax equipped Glocks and keep rounds in a golfball sized hole.
The point to test yourself with the laser. From 15 yards and in you should be putting slow fire rounds just about into the same hole consistently. If you're not then you should be working on your platform and not your sighting. The dot should not be dancing around on the target, if it is you're platform is not stable enough.
All in all a great asset for a firearm when you're ready for it, just don't kid yourself about your skill and come to rely on it.
Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.
June 7th, 2007 07:18 PM
I am wary of any "studies" conducted by the manufacturer. I would like to see an FBI study on shootings involving lasers, that may be more reliable info.
Originally Posted by markand
I do agree with that the time will come when you can be considered negligent for not being laser equipped. Anyone who trains SWAT teams will tell you that you must have the most up to date equipment available. A SWAT member needs to have a gun (or any other for that matter) that has ACOG's or similar not just traditional sights. so I don't think lasers are far off.
Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.
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