Crimson Trace Special Report - Page 2

Crimson Trace Special Report

This is a discussion on Crimson Trace Special Report within the Related Gear & Equipment forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by P95Carry Aha - a ''Tangle length post'' LOL! Good one tho Ron and your main thrust is well valid. I would only ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Aha - a ''Tangle length post'' LOL! Good one tho Ron and your main thrust is well valid.

    I would only counter that for myself, in as much as, I have shot so long now that my natural sighting hold and useage is so ingrained I really doubt I can lose it.

    Your point does tho have considerable validity when applied to young and new shooters. So I would say there - starting to shoot and train with CT's can indeed be prejudicial - it could become a prop, when in fact there will almost always be circumstances when either light is too bright or Murphy just decides, your grips ain't workin' today .

    What I am saying then is - as an adjunct for experienced shooters, I think they are invaluable but if I was training new folks with em - I'd pretty much hammer home a LOT of non laser shooting, with std sights only.
    Yeah, I know, that was kinda a Tangle Magnum as posts go. Either some things are complicated, or I can't "spit" it out, oh well maybe as I get older....

    As for your remarks, well said Chris! I agree fully about "ingrained", whether it's sighting, grip, or whatever. That has to do in fact with one of my theories about training. Oh, no, could this be the start of another Tangle length post? I'll try to give the short version.

    I believe one reason there is contraversy about what shooting techniques are best and what works best in the street, etc. has to do with ingraining. If the training is insufficient to produce ingraining, under stress, the person will revert to untrained and perhaps "natural" shooting techniques and will be unsuccessful. The resulting assessment is usually that the shooting technique he was taught was wrong, when it really was that the ingraining didn't happen.

    I have seen lots and lots of people shoot, in fact every time I take somebody shooting, I first have them shoot without instruction or demo to see how they "naturally" shoot. Without exception it is awful. Hits are all over the place and recoil management is dreadful. It is interesting to see what happens when I teach them good shooting techniques. Hits actully form groups and continue to improve and recoil comes under control. I have yet to see somebody's natural technique come anywhere close to good shooting techniques. But they don't shoot enough to ingrain the techniques. So, the next time we shoot or if I put them on a timer, they tend to revert back to those natural shooting habits and hits spread. I think that's what happens to LEOs, they are trained correctly, but not to ingraining, so when they have to shoot they shoot from their "natural" habits and are not very successful.

    OTOH, like you have experienced, because of ingraining, I can't count how many times I've gone to my trained shooting techniques in stressful situations - mostly FOF training and didn't even realize I was doing it - I just do it. It's ingrained, so I guess it has now become "natural" to me.

    Hey! Aren't you suppose to be out shooting your new P220 so you can tell us what you think - as if I didn't know already.

    Then with the money you have left over, you need to think about a H&K USP. I am more and more impressed with this gun. I can engage the safety [b]before[\b] I do a press check and I can engage the safety [b]before[\b] I cock the hammer to a SA mode. And it shoots! Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm it shoots!

    I swear I did it again! (Tangle size i.e.)


  2. #17
    Member Array bubbygator's Avatar
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    As much as I am a fan of lasers, I have to agree with Tangle. In my experience with lasers, I find that the optimum sighting position with a laser spot is sighting just above the iron sights. That's our nasty little secret - that Tangle has cleverly ferreted-out. You DO have to train without the laser; or you will eventually find yourself in a position of having the laser out & you're looking over the iron sight wondering *** do I do now?

    I've read some scary court-room stories on some of the other forums. I'm comfortable with my mindset... I won't draw unless I'm being lethally threatened. And then it will be
    draw/target/shoot as one action.

  3. #18
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    Hey! Aren't you suppose to be out shooting your new P220 so you can tell us what you think - as if I didn't know already.
    Hang on!! haha - I am keen but - I ain't actually got it yet.

    Have sewn up the deal with Gary but I guess it'll be a good few days away before it reaches my FFL. This evening will of course be 226.

    Once I have the gun here then I'll be keen to go excercize it!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  4. #19
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    1. You can selectively activate Crimson Trace: that is, you can learn to squeeze that part of the grip or not. (Of course, in most models you can turn it off altogether if you choose.)

    - This allows you to do instinctive pointing, and then see if you were right! (In fact, I try not to use it for sight aquisition: i.e., I try not to use it to FIND the target--just for confirmation and fine tuning.)

    - You can do things which you can't do at most any range, but you can do at home with Crimson Trace...and see if you would have hit your target! Lunge to the left. Lunge to the right. Fall down and shoot. Shoot between your legs. (Ok, ok, I'll stop now and behaive.)

    - Because you can activate or not, you can give your position away or not: choosing your moment. (Yes, I know that's not so easy when you've got about 5 quarts of adrynalyn flowing through you.)

    2. Yes, you certainly do need to know how to use your sights: I'm not able to see the dot in extremely bright sun light, unless the target is very close indeed.

    3. I love Crimson Trace.
    Last edited by Hoosier; September 18th, 2005 at 07:24 AM. Reason: typo

  5. #20
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    keyboard commandos...ha ha ha ha, good one Chris :)

    Everyone's right on this. Bottom line, get em anyway...nifty toy.

    (my wholesale $228 for auto's, $158 most wheelies) get mama's ok

    Newb's all want to try mine, but can't figgure out why they don't work. I keep mine sighted in at 7 yds, so the red dot is UNDER my iron night sights at close range. Wouldn't want to ruin a perfectly good sight picture in a hostage situation, because that's what I'm looking for. The real secret is no secret, trigger control, flinch prevention, and recoil management. When the newb"s switch it off and start concentrating on the basics and the front sight, they're back on the paper. Then they turn on the laser again and, by golly, now it works!

    The 300% boost could be due to better muzzle control by "have to qualify" LEO's. I seriously doubt that's a problem for the vast experience of the members of this forum. I'm impressed. Hip boots aside, Tangle is correct. Ron, get em anyhow, you'll thank me later. I use them for dry fire practice because my eyes aren't 20-10 anymore, and I want to see the slightest quibble in my sight alignment as the hammer drops (a carryover from my target life.) Be advised, theyíll let you know how many cups of coffee youíve hadÖkinda like the high power scope can ruin your confidence, but weíre way past that, right?

    In my new life, short as it may be, my drills are for the first shot at close range, coming from any of the 4 quadrants. Use a laser? Get the gun to eye level? Use two hands? Not me. If my acquiring a full firing grip well in advance of trouble hasn't sent the vermin scurrying, in the next fraction of a second they won't have a care in the world.

    When I grew up, we didn't have laser sights, neither did our brothers, for the most, part in Nam. Now I think they're a great training tool, but, and Tangle has figured this out already, not necessarily for our CC application. Sure, they can be switched on and used as intimidation while holding a BG for the Cops. I don't care about multiple lasers confusing me (how many CC's are going to be around the parking lot or Quick Stop, anyway?) I leave mine off, and I keep my .45 just out of sight.

    Euclidean, try this math for me, please. If there are over 2,000,000 defensive uses of the gun (DUFís) reported annually, and a gun is generally fired in only one out of twenty or thirty presentations, most of which go unreported, what are the real numbers?
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  6. #21
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    For Ron and others - had a great shoot this eveing - moon was full and that made things a bit easier to see. This night shoot we were all allowed to use flashlights, CT's - whatever. I used my CT's to immensely good effect but some proceedurals and a coupla ''failed to neutralize, in the ''house shoot'' took some luster off!.

    All in all - a very satisfactory excercize - good hits, close shots but I can admit - too much of that and I could even find my intuitive sighting skills decaying a tad - so night sights need used too. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.

    Hey - CT's rock big time.!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  7. #22
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    Let me see if I've got this. From posts I gather that: Laser sights, specifically CTs will improve anybodyís shooting and will improve already fairly good shooters as much as 300%. We shoot much better and faster with them but we donít become addicted to them. Even though training with CTs takes training time away from iron sights, our iron sight proficiency doesnít degrade. CTs allows us to shoot faster because the gun doesnít have to be brought to eye level, but that will in not create bad habits that will degrade iron sight use. Theyíre great for training, but we donít turn them on for CCW. We shoot better with them but we canít always see the dot. If we try to shoot with them and donít see the dot, it doesnít surprise us or slow our shooting down one bit. Under stress, we donít have to even think about whether to use the CTs or iron sights because under stress we think clearly and will naturally and automatically choose the best option. We check the CTís function and battery condition every time we press check so that if we have to use the CTs in a life-threatening situation we know the CTs will work. We check the condition of the CTís on/off switch every time we press check to be sure itís not off when we think itís on and vice versa. Stress can cause us to unintentionally turn the beam on, but thatís not a major concern. We train to keep our finger off the trigger, and we train to keep our finger(s) off the switch until we intend to shoot. Fog, smoke, and even smoke from a gunshot(s) can make the beam visible right back to the gun, but thatís not a major problem either. We donít become dependent on CTs no matter how much we train and use them and we can not use them any time we choose. And it seems we can shoot a lot better with CTs, but we can shoot just as good without them??? If we couldn't shoot nearly as good without them, then we'd want to use them all the time, right?

    Ahhh, don't mind me, it's just me.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    For Ron and others - had a great shoot this eveing - moon was full and that made things a bit easier to see. This night shoot we were all allowed to use flashlights, CT's - whatever. I used my CT's to immensely good effect but some proceedurals and a coupla ''failed to neutralize, in the ''house shoot'' took some luster off!.

    All in all - a very satisfactory excercize - good hits, close shots but I can admit - too much of that and I could even find my intuitive sighting skills decaying a tad - so night sights need used too. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.

    Hey - CT's rock big time.!
    I kinda thought you'd do good! That's great that CTs were permissible.

    As far as failed to neutralize, the gun often behaves like a computer, it does what we make it do not what we want it too.


    Hey - CT's rock big time.! "
    I know; they improve shooting up to 300%; kinda makes one wonder why we'd want to shoot any other way.

  9. #24
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    I always get a kick out of "the laser will give away your position" in fog, smoke (gun and other), etc. In a non-military, non-SWAT LEO shooting, doesn't the BG have to be threatening us (CCW, LEO) or be warned (LEO) in order to shoot them in the first place? And after the first shot, EVERYBODY knows where you are shooting from.

    But I digress. What I wanted to point out was that the laser imporving scores may just reflect that the individual shooters might be aware of their various bad habits (flinching, pulling, etc.) by the movement of the dot and hence the feedback improved their scores.

    Of course, I can shoot about as well with either lasers or irons, but red dots on handguns give me fits.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan
    I always get a kick out of "the laser will give away your position" in fog, smoke (gun and other), etc. In a non-military, non-SWAT LEO shooting, doesn't the BG have to be threatening us (CCW, LEO) or be warned (LEO) in order to shoot them in the first place? And after the first shot, EVERYBODY knows where you are shooting from.
    Not necessarily. He may have been a threat and we may have taken our best shot, but that doesn't mean he's not still a threat. If we do what we've been trained to do, we shoot and move. Ostensibly, the BG no longer knows where we are. With NS (night sights) we could shoot from cover and likely the BG would never know where we were or what hit him, but if a laser inadvertently came on or happen to remain on because of our death grip, we just "painted" ourself and removed a tremendous tactical advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan
    But I digress. What I wanted to point out was that the laser imporving scores may just reflect that the individual shooters might be aware of their various bad habits (flinching, pulling, etc.) by the movement of the dot and hence the feedback improved their scores.

    Of course, I can shoot about as well with either lasers or irons, but red dots on handguns give me fits.
    I think that's a good point, but the article said shots made with lasers improved hit ratios by 300%. There was no mention that shots made with open sights also improved from training with laser sights.

    The article also said that Todd Jarret had a 20% improvement in something about his shooting. Jarret obviously knows how to shoot with sights.

  11. #26
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    300% of what, than what, and how what. Remember, guns in the home are 29 times as likely to jump right out of the drawer and shoot the owner?

    Lasers are now de facto in the military and law enforcement. I just can't see myself busting into the meth lab down the street while painting with the laser. OTOH, as I wait in my safe room for some BG to kick in the door, sure he'll be lit up like a stop sign. Better to have it and not need it. I'll use aftermarket mags, laser, and night sights in training, but if I don't have time to do anything but draw and fire, that's the drill I'll fall back on.

    I like the way you explained it, Tangle. Let me re-read it again:)
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp
    ...Lasers are now de facto in the military and law enforcement...
    I kinda get the impression from news and personal accounts that the laser sights are only used by some special forces. The lowly infantryman seem to still using iron sights or maybe some red dots.

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