Laser grips. Yay, or Nay?

This is a discussion on Laser grips. Yay, or Nay? within the Related Gear & Equipment forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SIXTO But they are a crutch. Yeah, people said the same thing about rifle scopes 100 years ago. Just a passing fad ...

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Thread: Laser grips. Yay, or Nay?

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    But they are a crutch.
    Yeah, people said the same thing about rifle scopes 100 years ago. Just a passing fad that takes away from real shooting skills. I guess red dot sight and holographic sights on AR's are just a gimmic too? If they are a crutch, then I am one example of an old boy who can beat most peoples butts with that crutch! You and others have a right to your opinions, but the facts are most of the shooting community has long ago excepted the fact that a well made laser sight is a good option for many shooters and often give a shooter the advantage in a confrontation. You know these new fangled computer things are really something when you learn how to use them too! But I guess the old typewriters makes you a better typer.
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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirate View Post
    Yeah, people said the same thing about rifle scopes 100 years ago. Just a passing fad that takes away from real shooting skills. I guess red dot sight and holographic sights on AR's are just a gimmic too? If they are a crutch, then I am one example of an old boy who can beat most peoples butts with that crutch! You and others have a right to your opinions, but the facts are most of the shooting community has long ago excepted the fact that a well made laser sight is a good option for many shooters and often give a shooter the advantage in a confrontation. You know these new fangled computer things are really something when you learn how to use them too! But I guess the old typewriters makes you a better typer.
    When you are using your new fangled computer to perform basic arithmetic functions, then yes, its a crutch.

    Other than that, your points are apples when are talking about oranges.

    Like it or not, they are a crutch. If you consider a false sense of security due to a gadget an advantage, I won't try to change your mind. I just happen to have years of experiance teaching people how to combat shoot using the tools they bring and the experiance of several real life armed encounters and countless force on force training encounters, but hey who am I?
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    We're not talking about 400 yard shots to bring down an Antelope here, so the rifle scope analogy doesn't cut it. For the distance virtually every justifiable self-defensive shooting goes down, sighting aids are nothing but a way to pull money out of your pocket. If you can't successfully put three COM at five to ten yards quickly, with or without sights, you probably have no business carrying a pistol.
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  5. #49
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I just happen to have years of experiance teaching people how to combat shoot using the tools they bring and the experiance of several real life armed encounters and countless force on force training encounters, but hey who am I?
    And yet there are others with similar CV's who have just the opposite opinion.
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  6. #50
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Of the many things I learned about training and tools while learning to fly there are two that stick in my mind as applicable to the discussion of the usefulness of a LaserGrip/LaserGuard.

    The first pertinent lesson was learning the use of a partial panel of instruments while flying. The instructor would periodically cover one of the instruments I began to rely on too heavily and show me how to use the other instruments to derive the same information. For car guys, it's like covering the speedometer but still knowing how fast you are going by looking at the tachometer. What informed my decision to add a laser based on this background is that the laser adds another layer of capability that can make shooting more successful. Just like I can fly with a partial panel, I am learning to shoot successfully with and without the use of my laser or my iron sights for that mater.

    The second pertinent lesson was that the totality of skills required to be a safe and successful pilot deteriorate exponentially with time. That means that you lose a larger percentage of your skill the soonest after your last use of it. This also happens with the skills necessary to shoot successfully. For me, the most important use of the laser on both of my EDC guns is the constant dry fire exercises I do nearly every day (with snap caps of course). One cannot ignore many of the errors induced by poor trigger discipline when watching the red dot at target distances while dry firing. My two EDC pistols are drastically different in trigger function, so constant resorting to fundamentals is essential to maintain proficiency.

    If I calculate the amount I would spend in live-firing as much as I dry fire, I could buy lots of lasers for the money I've saved on ammo. BTW, I still try to shoot live ammo at least once a week either as range practice or at a USPSA or IDPA event. However, I find that I am more successful at finding the time to dry fire than to going to a range to live fire.

    Lastly, although I do not have direct experience in this, I rely on what others have told me about what happens when being in a gun fight happens for real. I am told that in spite of the level of training, most people are shooting with both eyes open and focusing on the target instead of the front sight. It is still a work in progress, but dry firing with the laser is helping me learn to shoot with both eyes open and focusing at the target.

    Given the laser's training value and field value, I no longer consider a handgun EDC qualified unless I have a Crimson Trace on it. I feel so strongly about this that I still carry my M&P 45fs as primary rather than my M&P 45c which I prefer, because the 45c does not yet have a LaserGrip manufactured for it.
    Howard
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  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    We're not talking about 400 yard shots to bring down an Antelope here, so the rifle scope analogy doesn't cut it.
    I Guess you missed the point, the anology has nothing to do with a scope, it is that not all add-ons to the basic configeration of a firearm are worthless crap. A rifle scope mounted to a rifle does not deter riflemanship anymore than lasers used on a handgun make you less a pistol marksman if you already have the basic skills, that was the point and thats the whole point of this post. Is a laser worth the money you invest in at? I say yes....if it gives you an advantage.

    This is being beat to death now so why don't we all agree to move on to another point and post!
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  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    Lastly, although I do not have direct experience in this, I rely on what others have told me about what happens when being in a gun fight happens for real. I am told that in spite of the level of training, most people are shooting with both eyes open and focusing on the target instead of the front sight. It is still a work in progress, but dry firing with the laser is helping me learn to shoot with both eyes open and focusing at the target.
    This is very true... so there is a very good chance you are not even going turn the laser on, let alone be paying attention to your little red friend.
    Every example you have given of the lasers usefulness is training applications. So I must believe that my training wheels or crutch analogy is correct.
    As for the professional opinions, sure, you can find those who swear by CT products... but I have yet to find one who isn't sponsored or out right paid by CT. (Sorry, a NRA certification doesn't make one a professional IMO)
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    This is very true... so there is a very good chance you are not even going turn the laser on, let alone be paying attention to your little red friend.
    Every example you have given of the lasers usefulness is training applications. So I must believe that my training wheels or crutch analogy is correct.
    As for the professional opinions, sure, you can find those who swear by CT products... but I have yet to find one who isn't sponsored or out right paid by CT. (Sorry, a NRA certification doesn't make one a professional IMO)
    1. With the Crimson Trace LaserGrip on my M&P 45fs and LaserGuard on my LCP, the laser is on if you are gripping the gun. I know that some lasers of different design need separate activation, in which case I would agree with you.
    2. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of a training aid is a crutch.
    3. More to the point, you preferred live fire practice over investment in a laser for economic reasons. My calculation is the reverse of that if you believe in the training value I discussed.
    4. As always when I'm in dialog with you, you make me think harder and do more homework. That's a good thing. I'll need to investigate the "paid for" recommendations of Crimson Trace lasers.
    5. Sponsorships are not always a bad thing. What I look more closely at is who is willing to hire these trainers and what benefits do they see with those trainers in this highly competitive business.
    6. I will be taking training in November to get NRA certification.
    7. When I referred to trainers with similar CV's, I included all those skills and experiences you listed.
    Howard
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  10. #54
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    Lets look at your #2;

    Some kids learn to ride a bike with training wheels, others do not. The end result is largely the same; they learn to ride the bike.
    There comes a time when it is time to take those wheels off because it is hindering their progression of bike riding. The cant go as fast, cant corner etc... what was once a training aid is now a crutch... they cant perform up to their potential because they think they need this crutch.

    I'm a big believer in training like you fight.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #55
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    laser grips

    I recently installed CT on a S&W 442. It took about 10 minutes to install and do a quick 'Sight In' and another 20+ rounds at the range to zero in where I thought was right. I find it to be more of a crutch than a help. I carry a New Colt Agent and really like the concept on the no sight, quick target acquisition. I tried the CT on BUG night at our local inddor range and really wasn't comfortable with them. It may just be I haven't shot a lot with them on as compared to off but I think I'll keep them around as more of a novelty than a carry option. Just my thoughts.
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  12. #56
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    I always said no,but I was invited to a private range and it was IPSC I believe.They had a barricade set up with a BG target about 10 yds at the 2 O'clock,a BG w/2 hostages at armpit level at 12 O'clock and about 7 yds,and a BG at 10 'oclock and 10 yds.we had to shoot over barricade and then under barricade from left and right side of target.I shot OK from over barricade but I cannot get down on my knees or crouch due to Spinal injury so all my shots under barricade were point shooting which I managed to hit the targets with over 1/2 my shots but I could not use sights and my gun was away from my body angled to the left and had to look at the target while trying to line gun up and shoot.The guys said they had never seen anybody shoot around the front of the barricade while looking at the target from the backside of the barricade before.In the above situation laser sights would of helped a lot since I could not use both hands and had to use instinctive shooting.I'm surprised I hit the right BG target shooting from the left side under barricade at all
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