.223 cartridge overall length - Page 2

.223 cartridge overall length

This is a discussion on .223 cartridge overall length within the Reloading forums, part of the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics category; Originally Posted by OldVet Agree with Emrah on the crimping. The neck should be tight enough after resizing--for any rifle. You can't "roll crimp" unless ...

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Thread: .223 cartridge overall length

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Agree with Emrah on the crimping.

    The neck should be tight enough after resizing--for any rifle. You can't "roll crimp" unless the bullet has a channelure. Nor should seating the bullet crush the case (an extra advantage of BT bullets-they seat easily).

    .
    Yes, that's why I use bullets with a cannelure almost exclusively. I find it solves both of the problems discussed here. My discussion of crushing the case was relating to the crimp procedure, not bullet seating. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

    It's just my opinion, but I stick with what I said about crimp. Anytime I have used uncrimped bullets in a semi-auto I have had feeding and bullet setback issues during the feed proces with some rounds in the batch. Other's experiences may vary, but crimping avoids the issue.

    For the current issue, Old Vet beat me to the punch. An RCBS small base die might solve the problems the OP is having? I use one on a .308 I have that has a very tight chamber. The case is very tight if using a regular sizing die in that particular rifle. The small base die solved the problem.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.


  2. #17
    Member Array Emrah's Avatar
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    The "to crimp or not to crimp" issue can be debated, but it's a preference issue. If not crimping works in your guns (as it does in my AR), then I skip the crimping. In fact, I'd say a big chunk of the 55gr. FMJ bulk bullets I load don't have a cannelure at all. With all that said...

    Something still doesn't jive here. Neck tension should be MORE than tight enough to hold a bullet and not allow you to push it by hand. Chambering? That depends on your particular gun and how "rough" it is man-handling the round while loading. But pushing by hand? That's not right.

    Also, why is he still engaging the rifling when he's down to a COAL of 2.200? It should be nowhere near touching.

    Spyshot,

    Are you sure that the scratches you're seeing is from the engaging the rifling? Is it maybe from the feed ramps? Maybe it's getting scratched while chambering slamming sideways (left or right side of mag) and upwards?

    Emrah

  3. #18
    Member Array spyshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emrah View Post
    Spyshot,

    Are you sure that the scratches you're seeing is from the engaging the rifling? Is it maybe from the feed ramps? Maybe it's getting scratched while chambering slamming sideways (left or right side of mag) and upwards?

    Emrah
    emrah, after reading your post, i see that you may be right, the bullet appears to only have scratches on one side. but i've been putting the round in the chamber by hand and closing the bolt, not stripping it from the magazine. so where are the scratches coming from? i i've been doing more testing...here's what i've been doing...

    -insert empty case in chamber.
    -push bolt release
    -eject case...no problem at all, easily removed
    -seat a bullet to the same case at 2.205
    -insert cartridge in chamber
    -push bolt release
    -case stuck as hell
    -examine the case and find that the seating may have (very slightly) crushed the case right before it narrows down to the neck.

    i think the crimp is catching is rolling into the channelure and catching the end of it so when the bullet tries to continue seating, it crushes the case.

    so does this mean it's crimping too early???

  4. #19
    Member Array Emrah's Avatar
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    Yes. If the crimp is "finishing up" as it were while the bullet is still trying to seat fully, you'll crush the neck. That's why some suggested to seat first, then crimp separately.

    But I still don't understand why your bullets are so loose in the first place.

    Emrah

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    I have never crimped a case in my life, and I have fed plenty of ammo into auto loading rifles and pistols.

    In order to use the brass as much as one can, you don’t want to over work the brass, screwing the die till it comes to the shell holder may be recommended but it can and in most cases it will over work the brass. It can result in case separation with just a couple of firings.

    I chambered a M1A1 (M14 308/ 7.62) to minimum dimensions and can reload 9 times without having brass failures and the only reason I need to stop is because the primers start to fall out of the fired cases.

    When you reload you have the ability to custom fit the case to the chamber. Most factory barrels are head spaced long to ensure it chambering and going off.

    I suspect that the scratches you’re getting are on the right side of the bullet caused be the pressure from the ejector / the spring post on the left side of the bolt.

    The proper way to reload for a tight shooting gun /light lube start with the die so that it is way short of the base of the case, run the case into the die with the press the full length of the ram. Pull the case out and see how it fits it should NOT fit (bolt won’t close) don’t force it. Return the case to the press and adjust the die to size more of the case. Keep this up till it will fit the chamber and do just a bit more for extra clearance. You now will have a properly sized and head spaced case.

    To do this it helps to remove the recoil spring and the ejector plunger. The plunger is optional

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    I have never had a primer "fall out". I also always reload with good quality brass that is in good shape and will measure within tolerance. Any questionable brass gets smashed and thrown in a recycle bucket. It's not worth my rifle or my life to save a few cents.

    For my bolt action .270 I only neck size the brass and I do not crimp. As long as the brass came from the rifle it was fired from will fit into the same rifle after neck sizing. For this rifle I hand clean the brass, neck size, trim, deburr, champher, unify the flash hole diameter then measure rim and neck diameter, length and neck thickness.

    For my AR brass gets inspected, full length sized and a run through the neck sizing die. It will be trimmed, deburred, champhered then measured. Depending on the bullet used it will get a crimp.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntkb View Post

    In order to use the brass as much as one can, you don’t want to over work the brass, screwing the die till it comes to the shell holder may be recommended but it can and in most cases it will over work the brass. It can result in case separation with just a couple of firings.
    I have to disagree with you here. I've loaded more than my share of rounds with my dies set up this way (touching, per manufacturers' instructions) and have never had anything close to a head separation, not even the "shiny ring" that indicates thinning.

    Head separations are usually from hot loads causing the brass to flow forward, thus thinning the base of the casing.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyshot View Post
    -examine the case and find that the seating may have (very slightly) crushed the case right before it narrows down to the neck.

    i think the crimp is catching is rolling into the channelure and catching the end of it so when the bullet tries to continue seating, it crushes the case.
    Yep, the case bulges out right where it starts to taper. I had the same issue. You can "fix" it by adjusting the die properly and it should work fine, but in my case, even after the die was adjusted I would still get a bulge in one out of every 20 cases or so. That's when I decided to seat the bullet with the bullet seating die and then crimp with the FCD. No more bulges or crushed cases since then. I only reload rifle ammo for .308, 30-06, 30-30, 7mm-08, and .223 but the .223 is the only one I ever had this problem with.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post

    Head separations are usually from hot loads causing the brass to flow forward, thus thinning the base of the casing.
    What I should have said was if the chamber is cut long on head space it will cause case failure. The reason that the case fails when the head separates is not because of hot loads it is due to excessive head space.
    What takes place is when the primer is struck by the firing pin the case is shoved forward till it is stopped by the shoulder of the case hitting the shoulder in the chamber. The case is set off and expands grabbing the walls of the chamber and the case starts to flow where there is room left to do so back towards the face of the bolt.

    A hot load with a good fit in the chamber will flatten the primer and start to take out the dimple in it followed by a sticking bolt. If you are inclined to go past this point the action will jam or may come apart depending on how far one is willing to go.

    On belted magnums the case is stopped by the belt and allowed to flow forward with much the same result.

    A correction on my earlier post I LIED I do crimp my pistol brass.
    My apologies if it mislead any one

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    I have never had a primer "fall out". I also always reload with good quality brass that is in good shape and will measure within tolerance. Any questionable brass gets smashed and thrown in a recycle bucket. It's not worth my rifle or my life to save a few cents.

    .
    The brass is still fine for a bolt guns it has grown maybe .002 on each loading in case length.
    It wasn’t to be cheap but to find out just how far it will go and the primers came out on the last time being fired out of a gas operated gun.
    Yes the primers were quite easy to seat on the eighth loading. I suppose I should have stopped there.

    It started from a few friends I shot matches’ with at the time. The short story is, it was held that no more than 4 reloads could be done in any auto loading gun without a high probability of the case coming apart.

    One will never know how far one can go till you get there.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    Never answered the Ops question.

    If you have access to a dial caliper measure the inside of the case mouth before and after putting it in the press and check the diameter of the bullet something is very wrong.
    I am in my truck on the road so I don’t have access to any specs but you should have a difference of 002 to 003 or so don’t quote me on any of that that is off the top of my head. That is the difference between the bullet and the sized case mouth.

  12. #27
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    Sorry for bumping an old thread

    Hi all. This is my first post and I apologize for bumping an old thread, but came across this discussion while searching for some other info and found it interesting. In all the replies no one thought ot ask whether the OPs rifle is chambered in .223 Remington or 5.56 NATO. A 5.56 NATO chamber has a longer leade than a .223 Remington chamber. If the rifle is chambered in 5.56 NATO there should be NO WAY that the bullet is engaging the rifling. Secondly the SAAMI issued specs for .223 Remington call for a Min. COL of 2.165 and a max COL of 2.260 so as long as you stay within those you should be good, the specs were never mentioned that I saw. Finally, you can always check the SAAMI specs for rifle cartridges at

    http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/206.pdf. Thank you.

    Doc

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