Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill?

This is a discussion on Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by DZcarry I'm sure similar arguments were made when the country mandates that we all must have car insurance. What's more, to challenge ...

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Thread: Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill?

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I'm sure similar arguments were made when the country mandates that we all must have car insurance.

    What's more, to challenge the government's right to mandate insurance coverage for the good of the people is to indirectly challenge the legality of car insurance regulation. Should they win these suits it will also become unconstitutional to mandate car insurance.

    It is for that reason the the courts will likely hesitate to rule in favor of these state attorney generals.

    Furthermore, requiring everyone to have health insurance is not a violation of any individual right so far as I can see. They aren't requiring you to go to a doctor or to receive treatment you don't want.

    As for the personal responsibility argument, that goes out the window the moment an uninsured person gets suddenly ill and must go to the doctor for treatment. If said person does not have health insurance the costs will likely be so high that said person cannot foot the bill. Guess who pays for it under our current system? You and me!
    I'm sorry to say that the car insurance argument holds absolutely no water. You don't HAVE to drive. It is a privilege. I don't believe living is a privilege.

    I don't need big brother telling me I need health insurance policy A because I am this and that. I want to decide what I want.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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  3. #47
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    WARNING LONG POST AHEAD!

    I'd like to address the cost control issue. First, let me start out by saying that I am a fiscal conservative both in my personal life and when it come to the government.

    I agree with everyone that the underlying costs of health care must be addressed in order for the costs to go down. However, I submit that this bill has already gone a long way in containing those costs. To say otherwise is simply a red herring.

    If any of you have ever worked with health insurance companies you already know what I'm about to outline.

    Let me give you a little background. I worked my way through college as a legal assistant at a personal injury law firm. In the course of my employment, I handled hundreds of health insurance bills for both insured and uninsured plaintiffs.

    The way health insurance works is that the insurer negotiates an acceptable rate for different kinds of procedures with the providers. In addition, the insurer also determines what procedures will and will not be covered. The insurer sets a cap on health care costs. Any amount charged over that cap automatically gets taken off. This is called a contractual adjustment.

    If you have conventional PPO type coverage take a look at your statement and you will see the categories "covered amount," "contractual adjustment" and "patient responsibility." As an insured person you are only responsible to pay for your portion of the covered amount as determined by your health insurance benefits package.

    An uninsured person, however, does not have an insurer to negotiate a contract rate for them. There are also no requirements that a given provider charge you a reasonable rate. In short, the hospitals are billing you whatever they want and you have no say in the matter. Often times, because providers accept insurance and as a result accepted reduced payments they often times overcharge the uninsured to cushion their bottom line. This is what makes health insurance costs seem so high.

    Let's take an example here. This is completely made up, but it proves the point:

    You go to the hospital for a CAT scan. You have health insurance that requires you to pay 20%. Your bill will looks a lot like this. Charged amount, $2,000. Covered amount, $1,000. Contractual adjustment, $1,000. Patient responsibility, $200. Co-pay, $25. Amount due $175.

    Now, let's say that you need a CAT scan, but you are uninsured. You have to pay the costs out of pocket. Your bill looks something like this. Charged amount $2,500. Amount due $2,500.

    Do you see what just happened there? For the insured person the hospital billed $2,000 not $2,500, and only received $1,000 not $2,500. If you are uninsured, you are cushioning the providers bottom line, not paying the actual costs.

    If we are all insured what automatically happens is that providers' costs will automatically be held down due to their contracts with the health insurance companies. They may try to increase the costs, but the insurance companies will not go quietly into the fog. They are not interested in paying providers more. They want to pay them less.

    In short, the government is relying on health insurance companies self-interest to drive down the costs of health care in this country. That's capitalism not socialism as some might have you believe.Whether or not you agree with this method, it is a cost containment measure and as such will reduce the overall cost of health care in this country by forcing the providers to find more cost effective ways to run their businesses.

    So far as I'm concerned this is only a first step. The government will need to pass reforms that cap what insurance companies can charge the American people so that we down get screwed up the a-hole with premium charges.

    As a fiscal conservative, I know of the perfect way to do that, but it is probably too controversial to discuss openly in the forum. If anyone cares to know they can PM me.

  4. #48
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    I don't need big brother telling me I need health insurance policy A because I am this and that. I want to decide what I want.
    I agree with that 100%. I don't want the government telling me what to do either.

    The fact of the matter is that because we live in this country we are subjected to the will of the government in many facets of our lives. This is also enshrined in the constitution. The thing is if we want the USA to continue to exist we have to do something about the costs of health care.

    We can't just sit by and wave our flags and shout about our rights while the costs of health care drag the USA under the water. We have to do something.

    I am not happy about this health care package. I'm not sure it will work, but I admire the legislators for recognizing there is a problem and trying to fix it. Unfortunately, the fix they have come up with is less than satisfactory and so they will likely pay with their jobs.

  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    As a person who works in the health care field I can tell you that the average physician comes out of medical school with over 100 grand in student loans and even if they got a stupidly low rate like 4% that is 4 thousand dollars a year in interest alone. They then have to keep a license to practice as well as all living expenses.

    By "reforming" the health care system many of these physicians will be suffering the consequences. I can't see how anyone would want to be a private doctor while seeing patients at 50 bucks a pop. Or the hospital's ER doc who is working a double shift because of staff layoffs but can't be paid overtime because the department must cut it's expenses. You think the poor guy/gal is going to stay there?

    Nothing in life is free. The hospital I work at is non profit just like most. When something breaks like a defib screen its automatically going to cost double or triple because its medical equipment. Disposables are outrageously expensive! A procedure set for a TMR procedure is over $15,000! THEY THROW IT IN THE GARBAGE AFTER THEY ARE DONE!

    I hate to say but if this reform is all about cutting medical costs it's still the little guy who is going to suffer the most. The rich and twisted will still be rich and twisted.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPro.40 View Post
    No, actually the difference in mandated auto insurance and health care insurance is mandated auto insurance is to protect fellow drivers from those who refuse to carry insurance to protect others. Thats where the uninsured motorist coverage comes in. Mandated health care is not to protect the public but to provide excess from the haves to buy for the have nots.
    Maybe we're preaching the same message in different ways.

    Regardless, of how you want to split the hairs, you don't HAVE to have auto insurance. YOU can CHOOSE to walk. Then you'd be healthier and your health care costs would go down.

    If you WISH to excersize a privledge of driving on taxpayer funded roads, then you are required to purchase insurance.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    You go to the hospital for a CAT scan. You have health insurance that requires you to pay 20%. Your bill will looks a lot like this. Charged amount, $2,000. Covered amount, $1,000. Contractual adjustment, $1,000. Patient responsibility, $200. Co-pay, $25. Amount due $175.

    Now, let's say that you need a CAT scan, but you are uninsured. You have to pay the costs out of pocket. Your bill looks something like this. Charged amount $2,500. Amount due $2,500.

    Do you see what just happened there? For the insured person the hospital billed $2,000 not $2,500, and only received $1,000 not $2,500. If you are uninsured, you are cushioning the providers bottom line, not paying the actual costs.
    A think a statement and example like this requires a real example. I would speculate reality is the opposite. Everyone loves the auto insurance example - When a provider knows something is going to be an insurance claim then they charge the maximum allowable amount. If something isn't an insurance claim, they charge what they think they can collect. Happens all the time in auto insurance...
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    A think a statement and example like this requires proof. I would speculate it's the opposite. Everyone loves the auto insurance example - When a provider knows something is going to be an insurance claim then they charge the maximum allowable amount. If something isn't an insurance claim, they charge what they think they can collect. Happens all the time in auto insurance...
    When I paid an office visit out of pocket they charged me less then they now get with insurance. Adding my co pay + what the insurance pays it is more. I didn't want to say anything because I don't know for a fact if the same holds true for diagnostic procedures.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  9. #53
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    A think a statement and example like this requires a real example. I would speculate reality is the opposite. Everyone loves the auto insurance example - When a provider knows something is going to be an insurance claim then they charge the maximum allowable amount. If something isn't an insurance claim, they charge what they think they can collect. Happens all the time in auto insurance...
    I can give you a personal example. I have some foot issues, so I go a specialist. In the lobby they have a sign up that says the out of pocket expense for an office visit is $150 up front. My Explanation of Benefits for my office visit shows that they billed $30 for the doctor visit and $70 for tests. Of that $30 of the doctor visit was paid and $37.02 of the the tests were paid. In all the doctor received $67.02 and that included my co-pay. The out of pocket cost for the same visit is over twice as much.

    I've seen countless medical bills for everything from office visits to scans to surgeries. The only time I've ever seen a discount given for cash payment is with some family practices or chiropractors.

  10. #54
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    When I paid an office visit out of pocket they charged me less then they now get with insurance. Adding my co pay + what the insurance pays it is more. I didn't want to say anything because I don't know for a fact if the same holds true for diagnostic procedures.
    Generally, insurance companies pay the cover amount of the charges minus your co-pay. Your co-pay is not a payment over and above what the insurance company considers the covered charges.

  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    Generally, insurance companies pay the cover amount of the charges minus your co-pay. Your co-pay is not a payment over and above what the insurance company considers the covered charges.
    the total billed amount was still more then what I paid for uninsured. Yeah I had to pay more then the copay I now pay now that I'm insured but you said that the uninsured amount is more then double what they would get if they billed the insurance company.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I can give you a personal example. I have some foot issues, so I go a specialist. In the lobby they have a sign up that says the out of pocket expense for an office visit is $150 up front. My Explanation of Benefits for my office visit shows that they billed $30 for the doctor visit and $70 for tests. Of that $30 of the doctor visit was paid and $37.02 of the the tests were paid. In all the doctor received $67.02 and that included my co-pay. The out of pocket cost for the same visit is over twice as much.

    I've seen countless medical bills for everything from office visits to scans to surgeries. The only time I've ever seen a discount given for cash payment is with some family practices or chiropractors.
    You probably pay the asking price for hotel rooms, carpet cleanings, etc.. You see signs everywhere "establishing" a price or ligitimizing someone's position, "that's our standard price", "that's the policy.

    If you aren't willing to ask for a concession then you deserve to pay the posted price.

    Power Of Legitimacy - KARRASS Effective Negotiating Tips

    .....That's the way the power of legitimacy works. It hypnotizes you into compliance.

    Both buyers and sellers use this technique to legitimatize terms and conditions, selling price, specifications, and more. The next time you are asked to accept the terms on the fine print of the contract, to follow a regulation or procedure, pay a listed price for extras, give additional credit terms, pay extra for a service contract, pay a surcharge or penalties, or give required discounts, watch out. These things are more negotiable than they appear to be.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    the total billed amount was still more then what I paid for uninsured. Yeah I had to pay more then the copay I now pay now that I'm insured but you said that the uninsured amount is more then double what they would get if they billed the insurance company.
    Wow, you mean a CASH discount? The hospital didn't want to deal with the hassle of filing insurance paperwork, waiting months to get paid? They accepted a lesser amount to have cash in hand on the spot?
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  14. #58
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    the total billed amount was still more then what I paid for uninsured. Yeah I had to pay more then the copay I now pay now that I'm insured but you said that the uninsured amount is more then double what they would get if they billed the insurance company.
    In that particular hypothetical I used a CAT scan as an example. In the bills I saw it was always the case that the patient who had to pay out of pocket paid roughly twice or more than what the insurance company would have paid the provider for the same procedure.

    My sister recently had to be rushed to the ER and received an MRI while there. They charged her $1,500 for the MRI. She is uninsured. Do you think that is the amount the insurance company would have paid for the procedure? Absolutely not. They are in the business of getting discounts not paying retail.

    My experience with my foot clinic is the most recent example I have where I know what they charge the cash patients and can compare it with what I pay. I just grabbed another EOB for an office visit I had with him that was a bit more involved (cortisone shot). Even for that my insurance paid less than the posted rate for cash patients. He billed $176 for that visit (excluding the ultrasounds, etc.), but was only paid $83.12 by my insurance company. That is still a lot less than the posted rate of $150 per visit. Only God knows how much they would have had to pay for all the ultrasounds etc.

    The point is that in the vast majority of cases (excluding some family practices or personal relationships with doctors) the insurance companies pay much less than the patient would have to pay out of pocket.

  15. #59
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    You probably pay the asking price for hotel rooms, carpet cleanings, etc.. You see signs everywhere "establishing" a price or ligitimizing someone's position, "that's our standard price", "that's the policy.

    If you aren't willing to ask for a concession then you deserve to pay the posted price.

    Power Of Legitimacy - KARRASS Effective Negotiating Tips
    I personally try to get a discount for everything. I'm frugal. I don't like paying retail for anything.

    Having said that you can ask, but that doesn't mean you will get the concession. If you really need to see the doctor and they are not willing to give you a discount you pay the going rate.

  16. #60
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I personally try to get a discount for everything. I'm frugal. I don't like paying retail for anything.

    Having said that you can ask, but that doesn't mean you will get the concession. If you really need to see the doctor and they are not willing to give you a discount you pay the going rate.
    Then you need to see another doctor.... especially if you are not using a private doc. I'm just telling the tale of real world experience here. It worked with my dentist also. I paid significantly less for my tooth X-rays because I told them I have no insurance. I still go there now that I'm insured.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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