Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill? - Page 5

Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill?

This is a discussion on Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by DZcarry I personally try to get a discount for everything. I'm frugal. I don't like paying retail for anything. Having said that ...

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Thread: Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill?

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I personally try to get a discount for everything. I'm frugal. I don't like paying retail for anything.

    Having said that you can ask, but that doesn't mean you will get the concession. If you really need to see the doctor and they are not willing to give you a discount you pay the going rate.
    Like razor said, you go to another clinic.

    Last week I went to a powder coater and asked for a service. He said $75, I said I was thinking more like $50 so how about $65 and it's a done deal. He refused. I walked out, went to the next powdercoater, he looked at the project and said, "I can do it for $50."

    Take It Or Leave It Negotiating – KARRASS Effective Negotiating Tips

    “Take it or leave it” is not as ominous as it sounds. It often represents good pricing policy for the seller, and a better way for the buyer to buy.

    “Take it or leave it” makes sense under the following conditions:

    * When you don’t want to encourage future negotiating.

    * When the other party is under a lot of pressure to say “yes” to what you propose.

    * When a drop in price to one customer will force a drop to all customers.

    * When others have already accepted your proposition.

    * When you can’t afford to risk a loss because you are selling at the lowest possible price.

    * When you want to signal the other party that you have gone as far as you are going to go.

    If you are going to use “take-it-or-leave-it” in your negotiation, there are ways to minimize hostility. Never use the expression itself because the words alone are enough to anger the other person.

    “Take-it-or-leave-it” positions that are backed by legitimacy are less offensive. When a firm position is backed by regulations, published policies, clearly observed price tickets, or customary trade practices, it tends to be accepted more easily. The same is true when your firm position is accompanied by a good explanation and positive proof statements.

    People are more willing to accept a “take-it-or-leave-it” later in a negotiation than earlier. Timing is important in reducing hostility.

    “Take-it-or-leave-it” is a legitimate tactic in negotiation. A surprising number of people welcome it because it saves them the trouble of bargaining. If you are going to use it, there are three things you must do. First, give the other party all the time needed to discuss the matter; and second, be sure to tell your boss, or your team, that you are going to use it. The person who forgets this is could be in real deep trouble. Finally, if you use ‘take-it-or-leave-it’ as a negotiating tactic, remember it could result in a ‘dead lock’. You need to plan for this. If you really want, or need, to come to an agreement with the other party, determine which techniques you will use to re-open negotiations should a ‘dead-lock’ occur.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?


  2. #62
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Then you need to see another doctor.... especially if you are not using a private doc. I'm just telling the tale of real world experience here. It worked with my dentist also. I paid significantly less for my tooth X-rays because I told them I have no insurance. I still go there now that I'm insured.
    Of course you go elsewhere. I'm just saying, as a general rule (and you and I both know there are exceptions to every rule) the insurance companies pay providers less than their cash patients pay. The insurance companies have the numbers and the funds to negotiate discounts where individuals can't.

    If this were not so they'd end up out of business fairly quickly. If this were not so you wouldn't hear providers constantly complaining that insurance companies pay them pennies on the dollar.

    Now certainly if you go to a small family practice for medical, dental and vision, you can likely get some discounts if you pay cash. But let's be clear here, $100 doctor's visits are not what is threatening to bankrupt this country. What is threatening us all are the costs for diagnostic exams, surgeries, cancer treatments, etc. It's the high dollar critical care that is threatening to bring us down, and there the bargaining power of big health insurance companies cannot be questioned.

  3. #63
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    Of course you go elsewhere. I'm just saying, as a general rule (and you and I both know there are exceptions to every rule) the insurance companies pay providers less than their cash patients pay. The insurance companies have the numbers and the funds to negotiate discounts where individuals can't.
    I disagree. That's like saying Union wages pay more because of negotiation and united power.

    I worked in union shops and got paid above scale and more than my coworkers.

    Because the relationship between provider and insurer or company and union are always in negotiation, each party asks for polar opposites and not a realistic position.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  4. #64
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    Like razor said, you go to another clinic.

    Last week I went to a powder coater and asked for a service. He said $75, I said I was thinking more like $50 so how about $65 and it's a done deal. He refused. I walked out, went to the next powdercoater, he looked at the project and said, "I can do it for $50."
    Like I said, I agree with you.

    However, we are talking about health care here. If you are going in for something routine you have plenty of time to bargain and look for second opinions, but if you are going in because you need acute care you can't go for a second opinion.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    I disagree. That's like saying Union wages pay more because of negotiation and united power.

    I worked in union shops and got paid above scale and more than my coworkers.
    I don't understand what you are saying here? Are you union or non-union?

  6. #66
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I don't understand what you are saying here? Are you union or non-union?
    I edited my post - but I don't see how your question is relevant. I was union and still got paid more than my union coworkers.

    The insurance company negotiates a best deal for "them" not necessarily each individual consumer. There is an established cost for services while the REAL cost for the same service is different from hospital to hospital and clinic to clinic.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  7. #67
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Things don't just HAPPEN. It's not like they strap you to an MRI bed and start a scannin away. One doc might need that MRI to diagnose you.... another doc may just be able to tell with old school methods (poke and prod and look).

    I still don't think you know the scope of just how much it costs for complicated scans and procedures. Yeah they are insanely expensive... for the individual and the hospital. If you have to have a CABG done and you don't have the insurance to cover then you are just going to have to either live with stents or bite the bullet and finance it. What are they going to do? Repossess your heart?
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  8. #68
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Things don't just HAPPEN. It's not like they strap you to an MRI bed and start a scannin away. One doc might need that MRI to diagnose you.... another doc may just be able to tell with old school methods (poke and prod and look).

    I still don't think you know the scope of just how much it costs for complicated scans and procedures. Yeah they are insanely expensive... for the individual and the hospital. If you have to have a CABG done and you don't have the insurance to cover then you are just going to have to either live with stents or bite the bullet and finance it. What are they going to do? Repossess your heart?
    Great post.

    When I was in the service and had knee problems the doc scheduled me for a scope. I asked why we weren't doing an MRI and he said it wasn't necessary, I clearly had problems in the joint and regardless of what the MRI showed, they would have to go in to repair the damage. Thus, an MRI was a waste of time and money.

    What happens in the civilian world? The insurance company will pay for the MRI so the hospital does one. Thus, insurance costs go up for unnecessary proceedures. OR, the hospital argues they have to cover their ass for lawsuits so they MUST to the proceedure - and thus TORT reform would reduce costs and unncessary proceedures.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  9. #69
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    I disagree. That's like saying Union wages pay more because of negotiation and united power.

    I worked in union shops and got paid above scale and more than my coworkers.

    Because the relationship between provider and insurer or company and union are always in negotiation, each party asks for polar opposites and not a realistic position.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    I edited my post - but I don't see how your question is relevant. I was union and still got paid more than my union coworkers.

    The insurance company negotiates a best deal for "them" not necessarily each individual consumer.There is an established cost for services while the REAL cost for the same service is different from hospital to hospital and clinic to clinic.
    Ok, now I understand what you mean.

    The real question is would you be making as much as you make if the union had not set the minimum standards?

    Your post assumes that you could have gotten that wage if the union did not exist. You may disagree with me, but I think that is a false assumption.

    As to that bolded section, as an insured person you reap the benefits of what the insurance company negotiates for themselves because you only pay a co-pay and/or percentage of the negotiated rate. When you are insured you pay less than the cash rate no matter what. If for some strange reason the cash rate is cheaper than your co-pay then you pay the cash rate and lose nothing.

  10. #70
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Things don't just HAPPEN. It's not like they strap you to an MRI bed and start a scannin away. One doc might need that MRI to diagnose you.... another doc may just be able to tell with old school methods (poke and prod and look).

    I still don't think you know the scope of just how much it costs for complicated scans and procedures. Yeah they are insanely expensive... for the individual and the hospital. If you have to have a CABG done and you don't have the insurance to cover then you are just going to have to either live with stents or bite the bullet and finance it. What are they going to do? Repossess your heart?
    I can definitely see your point of view and your point is well taken. But let me ask you this. Do you know how much it actually costs to do an MRI? I don't, but all it takes is a bit of reasoning to see that $1500 per patient is probably above and beyond the costs.

    In a major hospital I'm sure there are at least 10 MRIs per day (it's probably more like 20-30 a day but for the sake of argument let's stick with something insanely low). If they are $1,500 a pop that's $15,000 per day. Let's just say they do MRIs five days a week or 50 MRIs per week. That means the hospital brings in $750,000 per week and $3.9 million a year (20 a day=7.8 mil, 30 a day= 11.7 mil) from MRIs alone never mind the charges for procedures that might accompany the MRI.

    Yes, the equipment is expensive. Yes, you have to pay for the staff etc. But, how many years will it take before the hospital has made up its costs and then some?

    Surely the actual cost for an MRI is below $1,500.

    Anyway, we obviously are not going to see eye to eye on this we might as well just agree to disagree and move on.

  11. #71
    Member Array 2ndAmend's Avatar
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    Just wondering, does the new health care reform include Zombies, I dont want to pay for health care if they cover Zombies.
    A good friend will come bail you out of jail...But a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn we screwed up".

  12. #72
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    Ok, now I understand what you mean.

    The real question is would you be making as much as you make if the union had not set the minimum standards?
    yes. the Union and Company negotiated a scale from top to bottom of what they would pay machine operators. However, what this really does is establish credible position for the company to pay the weakest members of the herd. When the company found the best employees who they didn't want to go elsewhere, they'd pay extra if you negotiated it.

    Your post assumes that you could have gotten that wage if the union did not exist. You may disagree with me, but I think that is a false assumption.

    As to that bolded section, as an insured person you reap the benefits of what the insurance company negotiates for themselves because you only pay a co-pay and/or percentage of the negotiated rate.
    Which brings us back to my POINT. That does nothing to address the real COST of the services. It just continues to spur on the economy thru lawyers and insurance companies.

    When you are insured you pay less than the cash rate no matter what. If for some strange reason the cash rate is cheaper than your co-pay then you pay the cash rate and lose nothing.
    I pay less at the counter out of my pocket, but not thru the course of the year when you add in premiums. And the COST of the service can easily be MORE than paying cash.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  13. #73
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I can definitely see your point of view and your point is well taken. But let me ask you this. Do you know how much it actually costs to do an MRI? I don't, but all it takes is a bit of reasoning to see that $1500 per patient is probably above and beyond the costs.
    Of course it's above and beyond the REAL cost and value added services the consumer is willing to pay for. The rest of the cost is in insurance fees for the doctor who gets sued for $50million when he misreads the MRI and another $100million in lawsuit against the hospital for employing the doctor because they should have known when he only scored a C in MRI reading that he was a liability.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  14. #74
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    yes. the Union and Company negotiated a scale from top to bottom of what they would pay machine operators. However, what this really does is establish credible position for the company to pay the weakest members of the herd. When the company found the best employees who they didn't want to go elsewhere, they'd pay extra if you negotiated it.
    No argument there. The question is still whether or not you would have achieved your current pay scale if those minimums were not in place.

    Which brings us back to my POINT. That does nothing to address the real COST of the services. It just continues to spur on the economy thru lawyers and insurance companies.
    I would agree with you except that you assume the the real cost is what the hospitals/providers charge. I don't think that is always the case.

    I pay less at the counter out of my pocket, but not thru the course of the year when you add in premiums. And the COST of the service can easily be MORE than paying cash.
    Ok, now you're just being contrarian.

    It's insurance, that's how it works. You pay your premiums to insure yourself against a potential catastrophic loss. You pay your car insurance premium to insure yourself against a car accident, theft, etc. You pay your life insurance premium to insure that your love ones can bury you and take care of themselves upon your death. You pay your flood insurance premium to insure you can fix/rebuild your home in case of a flood.

    You know just like I do that should something awful happen to your health (cancer, major surgery, chronic illness, etc) your care will cost every bit as much as you've paid in premiums and then some. And it is because of this that insurance companies then want to do things like drop you or increase your premiums.

  15. #75
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I can definitely see your point of view and your point is well taken. But let me ask you this. Do you know how much it actually costs to do an MRI? I don't, but all it takes is a bit of reasoning to see that $1500 per patient is probably above and beyond the costs.

    In a major hospital I'm sure there are at least 10 MRIs per day (it's probably more like 20-30 a day but for the sake of argument let's stick with something insanely low). If they are $1,500 a pop that's $15,000 per day. Let's just say they do MRIs five days a week or 50 MRIs per week. That means the hospital brings in $750,000 per week and $3.9 million a year (20 a day=7.8 mil, 30 a day= 11.7 mil) from MRIs alone never mind the charges for procedures that might accompany the MRI.

    Yes, the equipment is expensive. Yes, you have to pay for the staff etc. But, how many years will it take before the hospital has made up its costs and then some?

    Surely the actual cost for an MRI is below $1,500.

    Anyway, we obviously are not going to see eye to eye on this we might as well just agree to disagree and move on.
    Actually the real cost of an MRI installed into a room with your quick figure will exceed 5 years just to pay it off... let alone pay the staff to run and maintain it, electricity to power it, insurance in case it blows up or some buffoon wheels a metal cart in the room, upkeep and service contracts to keep it running and not to mention if they need to evacuate the liquid helium in an emergency.... (cost of between $100,000 and $150,000 + several days to get back running)

    Did you know that an MRI never sleeps? It must stay energized 24 hours a day 365 days a year in order to prevent the liquid helium from causing an overpressure in the chamber then blowing out the safety valve...see above for costs to get it back running... Once the magnet is ramped up it's up. (BTW one of the coolest things ever is seeing an MRI purge from up top the hospital!)

    Did you know a service contract for 1...one...uno MRI is between $500,000 and 3 million dollars depending on how much they want covered? Why you ask? Parts cost ungodly amounts of money not to mention training and did you know that an MRI tech's tools are completely non ferrous? Do you know how much those cost?

    Ever wonder why seemingly no matter how hard you look on the internet medical equipment costs seems never to appear? I wonder that too since it would make my points much easier to show.

    The point is despite what you have heard from the government about eeeEEEEeeevil insurance companies and eeeEEEEeeevil doctors... there is a reason health care costs a lot of money.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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