Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill?

This is a discussion on Hidden Gun Restrictions in HC Bill? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by razor02097 Actually the real cost of an MRI installed into a room with your quick figure will exceed 5 years just to ...

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  1. #76
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Actually the real cost of an MRI installed into a room with your quick figure will exceed 5 years just to pay it off... let alone pay the staff to run and maintain it, electricity to power it, insurance in case it blows up or some buffoon wheels a metal cart in the room, upkeep and service contracts to keep it running and not to mention if they need to evacuate the liquid helium in an emergency.... (cost of between $100,000 and $150,000 + several days to get back running)

    Did you know that an MRI never sleeps? It must stay energized 24 hours a day 365 days a year in order to prevent the liquid helium from causing an overpressure in the chamber then blowing out the safety valve...see above for costs to get it back running... Once the magnet is ramped up it's up. (BTW one of the coolest things ever is seeing an MRI purge from up top the hospital!)

    Did you know a service contract for 1...one...uno MRI is between $500,000 and 3 million dollars depending on how much they want covered? Why you ask? Parts cost ungodly amounts of money not to mention training and did you know that an MRI tech's tools are completely non ferrous? Do you know how much those cost?

    Ever wonder why seemingly no matter how hard you look on the internet medical equipment costs seems never to appear? I wonder that too since it would make my points much easier to show.

    The point is despite what you have heard from the government about eeeEEEEeeevil insurance companies and eeeEEEEeeevil doctors... there is a reason health care costs a lot of money.
    Firstly, I don't think insurance companies are evil nor do I think doctors are evil. I'm simply pointing out that the health care industry is not just non-profit. There are quite a few hospitals/clinics and all insurance companies that are there to make a profit. The question is how much of the "cost" is there to inflate profit margins.

    Furthermore, as I acknowledged the equipment is expensive. But don't be so quick to forget that the physician is paid through a separate charge (you still have to pay the rate for the office visit/ER visit which covers the physician, nursing, and staff salaries) also don't forget that the technicians who administer and interpret the MRI bill a separate charge for their services.

    As to the utilities. Please don't forget about the discounts they receive as well as all the other procedures they overcharge so that they can afford to keep the lights on.

    One should not blindly accept that the hospitals charge at the actual costs. The fact that they even accept major discounts for their services if you are insured point to the fact that their charges are inflated.

    Here we always talk about how the anti-gun folks are sheeple just wandering around with their eyes wide shut. We should not wander around blind to the fact that health (a human right) is a for profit industry. There is plenty of room to save money on all sides. Providers included!

    I'm done. This is a pointless conversation.

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  3. #77
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    No argument there. The question is still whether or not you would have achieved your current pay scale if those minimums were not in place.
    Yes I would have. Because the the competition is thru other companies who are willing to pay more for my labor OR in this case, other clinics who want my business. Has little to do with some arbitrary figure some suits in an office negotiate for their benifit.

    I would agree with you except that you assume the the real cost is what the hospitals/providers charge. I don't think that is always the case.
    FALSE - I never said that and don't believe that at all, where have you been? The real cost is some number based on employee salaries, operating costs (i.e. lights, electricity, etc), maintenance costs on the equipment, and depreciated costs of the equipment and building AND THE BIG KICKER - malpractice insurance.


    Ok, now you're just being contrarian.

    It's insurance, that's how it works. You pay your premiums to insure yourself against a potential catastrophic loss. You pay your car insurance premium to insure yourself against a car accident, theft, etc. You pay your life insurance premium to insure that your love ones can bury you and take care of themselves upon your death. You pay your flood insurance premium to insure you can fix/rebuild your home in case of a flood.

    You know just like I do that should something awful happen to your health (cancer, major surgery, chronic illness, etc) your care will cost every bit as much as you've paid in premiums and then some. And it is because of this that insurance companies then want to do things like drop you or increase your premiums.
    Again, it's a choice. I currently choose not to have life insurance. I've choosen in the past to forego health insurance for short periods. I've had fender-benders where I've paid the repair costs out of pocket. People treat their healthcare insurance like a socialist program, they don't care what the costs are and what the hospital charges their insurance, they just want to pay a small fee and have everything provided for them.

    I don't think you can find a single person who says healthcare is perfect and they should have left it alone. In your final paragraph, you are citing CATASTROPHIC coverage, not doctor visits or minor surgeries. Big difference.

    The point is, the FEDS didn't do anything to address what really makes up the COSTS behind healthcare. They attempted to put a bandaid on insurance premiums. You can put a bandaid on a cancer and it does nothing to cure the injury.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  4. #78
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    The right to live is a human right. Getting a CABG or weight loss surgery cause someone couldn't stop eating bacon cheese burgers even after the doctor warned him to stop isn't a right. Most hospitals are non profit did you know that? Clinics that offer Breast enhancements, lasic, and other non care procedures ARE for profit.

    That's fine I'm not buying into the government reform. Remember just like with any thing the government steps in on... It's not the evil rich people that will suffer the consequence, it's the small guy (you and me)

    Please let that sink in.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  5. #79
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post

    Again, it's a choice. I currently choose not to have life insurance. I've choosen in the past to forego health insurance for short periods. I've had fender-benders where I've paid the repair costs out of pocket. People treat their healthcare insurance like a socialist program, they don't care what the costs are and what the hospital charges their insurance, they just want to pay a small fee and have everything provided for them.

    I don't think you can find a single person who says healthcare is perfect and they should have left it alone. In your final paragraph, you are citing CATASTROPHIC coverage, not doctor visits or minor surgeries. Big difference.

    The point is, the FEDS didn't do anything to address what really makes up the COSTS behind healthcare. They attempted to put a bandaid on insurance premiums. You can put a bandaid on a cancer and it does nothing to cure the injury.
    I'm sorry to tell you, but tort reform is not the only solution to all our health expense problems. Should there be tort reform? Yes. Will it fix the problem? No.

    I don't know anyone who buys health insurance just so that they can pay $25 instead of $100 at their next doctors visit. You buy health insurance so that you will be covered in the event that something awful and expensive happens.

    I am not talking about just catastrophic coverage. I'm taking about health insurance in general. Catastrophic coverage will not save you in the event that something goes horribly wrong and it is only good for acute illness not long term. Catastrophic insurance is a joke. It is not even enough to save you from bankruptcy. If you ever have to use it you are facing extremely high out of pocket expense.

    As I stated in my first two posts in this thread (feel free to go back and read them) the HC bill is not a complete fix, but it gets the ball rolling in the right direction. And it will go a long way to bring down the costs of care in this country because it will force the health care industry as a whole to find cost savings because everyone will be insured and paying deeply discounted rates.

    There still needs to be something to cap the amount insurance companies can charge in premiums. There still needs to be a provision that allows us to buy across state lines. There still needs to be tort reform. A lot more still needs to happen.

    As they say Rome was not built in a day. In the same vein there is no way to get perfect reform in one go. This is just round one, there are many more bouts to go. The good news if that it doesn't fully take effect until 2014 so there is still time for fixes to be passed.

    This is not the bill I would have crafted, not the bill I wanted, and you can count me in the number of people who did not want to see it passed, but here it is. It is law, and honestly it's not all that bad either.

  6. #80
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I'm sorry to tell you, but tort reform is not the only solution to all our health expense problems. Should there be tort reform? Yes. Will it fix the problem? No.

    I don't know anyone who buys health insurance just so that they can pay $25 instead of $100 at their next doctors visit. You buy health insurance so that you will be covered in the event that something awful and expensive happens.

    I am not talking about just catastrophic coverage. I'm taking about health insurance in general. Catastrophic coverage will not save you in the event that something goes horribly wrong and it is only good for acute illness not long term. Catastrophic insurance is a joke. It is not even enough to save you from bankruptcy. If you ever have to use it you are facing extremely high out of pocket expense.

    As I stated in my first two posts in this thread (feel free to go back and read them) the HC bill is not a complete fix, but it gets the ball rolling in the right direction. And it will go a long way to bring down the costs of care in this country because it will force the health care industry as a whole to find cost savings because everyone will be insured and paying deeply discounted rates.

    There still needs to be something to cap the amount insurance companies can charge in premiums. There still needs to be a provision that allows us to buy across state lines. There still needs to be tort reform. A lot more still needs to happen.

    As they say Rome was not built in a day. In the same vein there is no way to get perfect reform in one go. This is just round one, there are many more bouts to go. The good news if that it doesn't fully take effect until 2014 so there is still time for fixes to be passed.

    This is not the bill I would have crafted, not the bill I wanted, and you can count me in the number of people who did not want to see it passed, but here it is. It is law, and honestly it's not all that bad either.
    Unless you have had or researched catastrophic health policy's please don't talk nonsense about them. Catastrophic policy can include as much as any health insurance they cut out preventative care to save you money and make it a more appealing option.

    When I was in college I bought a policy that would cover medical expenses up to $250,000. I could have bought more but didn't think I would need it as I stopped riding my motorcycle, smoking and drinking. It cost me $250 a month which is less the 1/3 of the cost of buying a full blown plan.

    It would have covered me if I was hurt or if I had god forbid developed something like cancer. I rolled the dice and would accept consequence if I lost.

    The health care bill is a complete corrupted joke. It won't help our health care situation and will make the debt worse. The government needs to relinquish control over many things including people's ventilator power switch.


    Your ideals are pure... your trust in the government to fix health care is foolish
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  7. #81
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Most hospitals are non profit did you know that? Clinics that offer Breast enhancements, lasic, and other non care procedures ARE for profit.
    I most certainly do know that. That is why I said quite a few not most or all.

    Now did you know that according to the AHA, who keeps a census of hospitals, roughly 1 in 5 of all community hospital are for-profit. It's not just places for breast enhancements and lasic as you so elegantly put it.

    AHA : Resource center : Fast Facts on US Hospitals

    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Unless you have had or researched catastrophic health policy's please don't talk nonsense about them.
    I have had catastrophic coverage. Thankfully I have since gotten full coverage. Furthermore my sister has catastrophic coverage. I researched my own coverage and hers. I am fully aware of the options available. I'm also fully aware of how much of a joke the coverage is.

  8. #82
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I most certainly do know that. That is why I said quite a few not most or all.

    Now did you know that according to the AHA, who keeps a census of hospitals, roughly 1 in 5 of all community hospital are for-profit. It's not just places for breast enhancements and lasic as you so elegantly put it.

    AHA : Resource center : Fast Facts on US Hospitals
    Thank you for that. Again you don't have to go to a profit hospital. The census does not include outpatient clinics where many profitable procedures are actually done.

    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I have had catastrophic coverage. Thankfully I have since gotten full coverage. Furthermore my sister has catastrophic coverage. I researched my own coverage and hers. I am fully aware of the options available. I'm also fully aware of how much of a joke the coverage is.
    you must have been really treated bad. You have my sympathy. Do you always hand your money over for bad service? You shopped around before didn't you? If you did I don't have to tell you that not all companies are the same. Just like any other insurance companies there are good ones and bad ones.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  9. #83
    Member Array DZcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    you must have been really treated bad. You have my sympathy. Do you always hand your money over for bad service? You shopped around before didn't you? If you did I don't have to tell you that not all companies are the same. Just like any other insurance companies there are good ones and bad ones.
    Your condescension is not necessary and not welcomed.

    I, like most other people who end up with catastrophic care, had that kind of coverage because it was all I could afford at the time. I got what I could, but the deductible was 5k and the out of pocket maximum was 10k it cost me $80 a month. In a catastrophic event I was bound to hit that limit. I could no more afford to pay 10k in medical bills then I could afford to get full coverage.

    I'm wondering why it is that your catastrophic plan was $250 a month. I could have gotten full coverage for that amount. Perhaps you are the one that got a bad deal.

  10. #84
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    Your condescension is not necessary and not welcomed.

    I, like most other people who end up with catastrophic care, had that kind of coverage because it was all I could afford at the time. I got what I could, but the deductible was 5k and the out of pocket maximum was 10k it cost me $80 a month. In a catastrophic event I was bound to hit that limit. I could no more afford to pay 10k in medical bills then I could afford to get full coverage.

    I'm wondering why it is that your catastrophic plan was $250 a month. I could have gotten full coverage for that amount. Perhaps you are the one that got a bad deal.
    I was being facetious. I don't know you or your sister and don't care what you guys buy or where.

    $1500 deductible and $5000 max out of pocket and 1/4 million in coverage. It depends on what you consider to be bad.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  11. #85
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Fear mongering? No such thing when referring to a liberal....

    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    Serious fear-mongering. The government already has access to VA medical records and medicare/medicaid health records. They have for years. Have they used that? This is speculation and fear-mongering.
    LOL In 1993 The Clinton administration demanded and got from the VA the names of over 90,000 vets who were under psychiatric care for simple anxiety or depression (no matter if their diagnosis specifically precluded them from harming themselves or another) and summarily dumped them into the NCIS database as being flagged for being unable to purchase firearms. These individuals are STILL TODAY trying to get this label expunged. When Bush came in and more importantly when the Republican Revolution happened in 1994, the new Congress promptly created a new law holding the VA to a new standard which called for reviews on a case by case basis and preventing the VA from providing to any government Law Enforcement Agency at any level any patient information without a specific subpoena individually presented and forcing use of probable cause for said subpoena, same as for any civilian search warrant of records.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    LOL In 1993 The Clinton administration demanded and got from the VA the names of over 90,000 vets who were under psychiatric care for simple anxiety or depression (no matter if their diagnosis specifically precluded them from harming themselves or another) and summarily dumped them into the NCIS database as being flagged for being unable to purchase firearms. These individuals are STILL TODAY trying to get this label expunged. When Bush came in and more importantly when the Republican Revolution happened in 1994, the new Congress promptly created a new law holding the VA to a new standard which called for reviews on a case by case basis and preventing the VA from providing to any government Law Enforcement Agency at any level any patient information without a specific subpoena individually presented and forcing use of probable cause for said subpoena, same as for any civilian search warrant of records.
    and I'm sure the ATF/FBI won't be allowed to access our medical records which are all being put into a huge federal database via a provision of last year's stimulus bill

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
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    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    and I'm sure the ATF/FBI won't be allowed to access our medical records which are all being put into a huge federal database via a provision of last year's stimulus bill

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain


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    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    I, like most other people who end up with catastrophic care, had that kind of coverage because it was all I could afford at the time. I got what I could, but the deductible was 5k and the out of pocket maximum was 10k it cost me $80 a month. In a catastrophic event I was bound to hit that limit. I could no more afford to pay 10k in medical bills then I could afford to get full coverage.
    Wanting something for nothing eh? $10k isn't that much in context and good thing for you that the hospital doesn't turn people away for not having cash in hand prior to handing out services.

    So sure, you'd have a $10k bill. BUT, as long as a person attempts to make monthly payments on what they can afford, the hospital isn't allowed to send it to collections.

    How many years do you have to pay $250 a month in a regular plan to have invested $10k? Less than four years. At $80 bucks a months, you'd have to pay for 125months. Sounds to me that a healthy person has a pretty good value in going for the catastrophic policy.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

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    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZcarry View Post
    There still needs to be something to cap the amount insurance companies can charge in premiums. There still needs to be a provision that allows us to buy across state lines. There still needs to be tort reform. A lot more still needs to happen.
    Damn, I wish they'd just legislate a cap on what people can charge for gas, and home heating oil, and my electric bill. While they're at it, just throw a cap on what the farmers charge for milk. I'm sure the farmers can pull some savings out of their ass somewhere. Just throw a cap on it, life will be much easier.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

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    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    and I'm sure the ATF/FBI won't be allowed to access our medical records which are all being put into a huge federal database via a provision of last year's stimulus bill

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
    As I've said, before, I'm sure they will, under the right circumstances. They already do. The point is, from the origin of this thread, that there are specific safeguards specified in this health care reform act to protect gun possession and ownership information from being part of those medical records. Unless those parts of the law are amended in the reconcilliation process, then gun ownership information is not to be information that can be collected or stored as part of the Public Health Service Act. We can thank the Republicans for the amendment that added those protections to the original act, and hope they don't get rescinded during reconcilliation.
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