Rattling the Second Amendment Saber - Page 3

Rattling the Second Amendment Saber

This is a discussion on Rattling the Second Amendment Saber within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Hopyard In the meantime, short of that circumstance, the individual states hold all the cards. They can change our Constitution any time ...

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Thread: Rattling the Second Amendment Saber

  1. #31
    Member Array dustinfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    In the meantime, short of that circumstance, the individual states hold all the cards. They can change our Constitution any time that a sufficient number of them are of a mind to do so. That doesn't sound like tyranny by the Federal government to me. Hence, no need to be thinking about "rebellion or advocating sedition.
    Exactly, our sovereign states have the power to set the country on the correct path. We have the power to reject unconstitutional behavior by the federal government. Unfortunately we must sometimes endure irresponsible behavior until the next election comes around.


  2. #32
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    I'm not sure anyone was advocating violence, I believed, and still believe, this is a discussion about current events, the mood of the people, and what could happen if this country continues on its current path with a complete lack of leadership from either party and any individual in government.

    Now, since we are expressing viewpoints here, and you brought up sedition Hopynard, which I think is an interesting topic, I'd like to add another word to the discussion - treason. I believe that some members of our government have participated in behavior that borders on treason. I'm talking about the selling of votes for favors, power, and money, and voting on legislation with provisions that are clearly unconstitutional, as well as the so called process that was used to pass said legislation. What are your thoughts on this?

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Actually, I was not referring to you. However, my point stands. No lawman should be an advocate of unlawful activity, which armed rebellion surely is, and which the author of the material in the first post clearly was trying to encourage in a very cowardly way.
    Quite the contrary Hopyard...

    Would you argue that free speech is illegal? NO - Its in the Constitution of the US.

    Would you argue that the press' freedom to report on whatever they feel like reporting is illegal? NO - Its in the Constitution of the US.

    Lastly your comments about unlawful activity in armed rebellion would mean that once again, as I indicated many months ago about you, it seems you do not understand what the 2nd Amendment is.

    So tell me where is it illegal to have an armed rebellion if the people so choose to rebel against a tyrannical or ever growing threat of tyrannical government?

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    That seems clear and cut and just as LEGAL as the 1st and 3rd and all other amendments of the Constitution. To argue otherwise means that you either:

    1. Do not understand the Constitution

    or

    2. Have clearly chosen to interpret the Constitution in a way that defiles the very meaning of those simple words.

    Why did a founding father once say...

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

    Would he have been referring to "Illegal armed rebellion"?

    It would seem rather "Legal" to me being the fact that the King of England surely thought that rebellion was illegal when the Americans fought for their liberties against the tyrannical monarchy pressing down on every facet of their lives.

    You would NOT have the freedom to discuss your perceived lack of understand of our Constitution on this forum of free speech had it not been for our founders "illegal armed rebellion" in the first place.

    After all...

    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson

    So I think it is illegal to not rebel when it would be justified.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #34
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    re: ctr The definition of treason is not what you think

    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Now, since we are expressing viewpoints here, and you brought up sedition Hopynard, which I think is an interesting topic, I'd like to add another word to the discussion - treason. I believe that some members of our government have participated in behavior that borders on treason. I'm talking about the selling of votes for favors, power, and money,
    Then, look up the meaning of the word treason. It is defined in our constitution, and it is quite different from what you are complaining of.

    In point of fact there is nothing at all new about "horse trading" amongst the legislators. It has been ongoing since the very start of our country. That is how legislative compromises are reached and legislation is achieved. It ain't nice. That's why it is talked about in terms of making sausage.

    See, too many folks here mislabel with hyperbolic verbiage the things they don't like, and the people they don't like, and the policies they don't like. And then because they have used hyperbole, they get others enraged to dangerous or illegal activity as we see in the very recent news.

    Here is the definition of treason straight from the founding fathers as it appears in our constitution:

    "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

    Do note that none of the things you are concerned about come anywhere near falling within the definition. And the word "only" is in there for a darn good reason as well. It means those two acts are the sole things which can be deemed to be treason, and nothing else.

    Rebellion as proposed and encouraged by the sedition minded here, would be true treason, "levying war" against the US.

    There is absolutely nothing patriotic about it. There is absolutely nothing noble about it. And there sure as heck is nothing courageous about those who egg others on to criminal acts by hiding behind false assertions of treasonous acts by our own government.

    Oh, btw, I didn't bring up sedition. Just for the record R&G did that.

  5. #35
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    Oh, btw, I didn't bring up sedition. Just for the record R&G did that.
    He is correct. I brought it up. I just threw it out as a point, since I'm not an attorney. Just rang my bell, since I just watched the HBO John Adams based on McCullough's book, and I'm starting Ken Burns Civil War tonight..........

    By the way, I quit trying to best Hopyard a long time ago.......

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    I dont like participating in threads that my replies are not on the first page because they just get ignored and/or overlooked. Threads go on for too long in my opinion.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #37
    Member Array kdydak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No lawman should be an advocate of unlawful activity, which armed rebellion surely is, and which the author of the material in the first post clearly was trying to encourage in a very cowardly way.
    As for me I am no lawman, this is 2A forum not the LEO forum.

    Why do you think we have 2A ? No it is not duck hunting.

    We are talking about possible (and increasingly likely) future. It is a little too late to start preparing to resist when you are being herded into a gas chamber.

    You may have been blessed that your entire family lived in a land that experienced no war on it's soil for 150 years. For me gas chambers and gulags are within living memory.

  8. #38
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    re: Tangoseal, armed rebellion =treason = criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    So tell me where is it illegal to have an armed rebellion if the people so choose to rebel against a tyrannical or ever growing threat of tyrannical government?
    You aren't serious I hope.

    See the definition of treason in our constitution.

    "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

    What part of armed rebellion do you think differs from waging war against the United States?

    Public remarks of the sort you have made on this subject do the decent and law abiding gun owners of this country a huge disservice. Unchallenged, and permitted to be propagated in a forum such as this, we would appear to be a exactly what the antis think of us, a bunch of potentially violent screwballs.

    There is no tyranny. There is no tyrannical central government.
    The states are fully in control of our destiny and have the ability to change anything whatsoever in our constitution through the process of calling a constitutional convention. That there is not sufficient interest in doing this should tell you quite a lot about the broad public view, and the broad view of responsible politicians, rather than the extreme fantasy view being propounded in threads such as this that we live in a tyranny.

  9. #39
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    For me gas chambers and gulags are within living memory
    I am truly sorry to hear that, but histrionics aside, we in America are hardly close to that point currently.

  10. #40
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    Public remarks of the sort you have made on this subject do the decent and law abiding gun owners of this country a huge disservice. Unchallenged, and permitted to be propagated in a forum such as this, we would appear to be a exactly what the antis think of us, a bunch of potentially violent screwballs.
    Well said, Sir. We are not a bunch of toothless wild-eyed wackos and should be sensitive to our public persona.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You aren't serious I hope.

    See the definition of treason in our constitution.

    "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

    What part of armed rebellion do you think differs from waging war against the United States?

    Public remarks of the sort you have made on this subject do the decent and law abiding gun owners of this country a huge disservice. Unchallenged, and permitted to be propagated in a forum such as this, we would appear to be a exactly what the antis think of us, a bunch of potentially violent screwballs.

    There is no tyranny. There is no tyrannical central government.
    The states are fully in control of our destiny and have the ability to change anything whatsoever in our constitution through the process of calling a constitutional convention. That there is not sufficient interest in doing this should tell you quite a lot about the broad public view, and the broad view of responsible politicians, rather than the extreme fantasy view being propounded in threads such as this that we live in a tyranny.
    Could not agree more. We need to deal in facts and not conspiracy theories and hyper rhetorical commentary. Do not allow your emotions to override sensabilities. We are far from tyrrany. It is normal to be upset when things seem out of balance and going wrong, but we need to pull together in a grass roots style politcal action group and take care of business in November, not make ourselves look like a bunch of ignorant nuts.

  12. #42
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    re: kdydak

    Quote Originally Posted by kdydak View Post
    As for me I am no lawman, this is 2A forum not the LEO forum.

    Why do you think we have 2A ? No it is not duck hunting.
    You are implying that the founders, having defined treason in the constitution, started the second with the phrase "a well regulated militia" in anticipation that such a well regulated militia would commit treason?

    What absurd reasoning.

    As for the other remarks, unlike you (I would guess) my relatives were killed in gas chambers, were shot in ditches they dug for their own graves, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic--though some keep bringing up things like that because their grasp on historical reality is missing.

    Those who do are incapable of distinguishing between tyranny and responsible constitutional governance. We have the latter. To call it the former is at best simply wrong, at worst an act of sedition per R&Gs cogent comment.

  13. #43
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    And with the comments of treason,sedition, and people being killed in gas chambers and such,and since NONE of it applys to what this forum is about, the time has come for this thread to go away.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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