How about the 1st Amendment

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Thread: How about the 1st Amendment

  1. #1
    Member Array Pete14's Avatar
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    How about the 1st Amendment

    Flips off a cop and walks away with $4000 dollars.

    Man Ticketed For Flipping Off Officer Gets $4K - Kansas City News Story - KMBC Kansas City

    Here's your sign!

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    When I was in college I heard about a guy who got pulled over by Waco PD while riding his bicycle (he was also drunk). The officer had him face the car while he cuffed him and the guy farted on the cop. He was charged with public intoxication and sited for some kind of city ordinance on AIR POLLUTION!

  4. #3
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete14 View Post
    Flips off a cop and walks away with $4000 dollars.

    Man Ticketed For Flipping Off Officer Gets $4K - Kansas City News Story - KMBC Kansas City

    Here's your sign!
    As it should be. You should have the right to speak (or gesture) how you feel about LEOs, politicians, etc. It's a political statement that's protected by free speech. Doesn't matter if the guy is an arrogant idiot or not. The LEO should have just smiled at him and waived goodbye. That would of got to the guy much worse than getting another ticket and it would have been legal.
    http://www.saf.org/ --- Fighting for American's Gun Rights
    http://GeorgiaCarry.org --- Fighting for Georgian's Gun Rights.
    http://Georgiapacking.org --- Discussion of Georgia Gun Laws.

  5. #4
    Member Array i10casual's Avatar
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    That's right, take it LEO! yeah right...

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Keep things within full context.

    He did not just flip off a cop, per the news report...

    Man Ticketed For Flipping Off Officer Gets $4K
    ACLU Settled Claim For Scott Schaper

    POSTED: 1:39 pm CDT April 15, 2010
    UPDATED: 1:52 pm CDT April 15, 2010

    KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- The local ACLU said it settled a case after a man was cited for disorderly conduct for flipping off a police officer after a traffic stop.

    According to the ACLU news release, Scott Schaper was pulled over by police Officer Craig Lundgren for failing to yield at a stop sign. Schaper was driving his children to school at the time. He said the traffic stop caused his children to cry. As he pulled away from the stop, Schaper cursed at the officer and flipped him off.

    Schaper was again stopped and ticketed for disorderly conduct.


    The next month, the ACLU sent a letter to the city's prosecutor, pointing out that the ticket was unconstitutional. A month later, the city dismissed the disorderly conduct ticket and agreed agreed to settle Schaper’s civil rights claims out-of-court in exchange for a payment of $4,000, plus $1,000 in attorney’s fees to the ACLU.

    The Olathe’s Police Department also agreed to provide department wide refresher training on the proper use of the disorderly conduct ordinance.
    Again as within full context I agree with the cop, and very likely would have made the exact same action under the same charge.
    It's appropriate.

    The city choosing to drop the charges and pay this guy and his dogs to go away rather than involve their own attorney and tax payer dollars to fight this item in and through the courts (up to SCOTUS no doubt!) makes the most sense, and cents, too.
    The ACLU knows this.

    Bottomline this mans 1A rights were not infringed.
    But at the same time there are laws toward public manner and activity. Flipping the bird on it's own is just a manner of sign language. That is not the problem.
    The drivers verbalization though that is where he very likely got himself into trouble...Doing so in front of minors (his own children!) thus disturbing/further disturbing them and the cop too.

    The charge of disorderly conduct is one of the most general types of misdemeanor charges and can actually include any type of action that results in some type of disturbance. Being charged with a disorderly persons offense can include yelling, rioting, loud noise issues, fighting or attempting to provoke a fight or even being intoxicated and disruptive. Typically disorderly conduct is a type of catch-all offense, however it can be very serious.

    Source - Disorderly Conduct Laws by State: Charges and Penalties | CriminalDefenseLawyer.com
    This is how and why people yelling and talking loud at public events or around bars after hours (!) wind up with exact same charge for exact same thing.

    As with any other item it is always important to consider full context as related to a given result by specific action.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Update...

    I go to microwave my lunch and find todays regional newspaper on the counter with the following story featured on the front which immediately made me think of this thread.

    Hampshire rocker's mom arrested at battle of bands

    Friday, April 16, 2010

    AMHERST - A New York woman who was on the University of Massachusetts campus, possibly to watch her son perform at a concert in the Southwest area of the campus, was arrested at the Hampden Dining Commons Monday night.

    Karen A. Brinn-Nazzaro, 55, of Yonkers, N.Y., was arrested Monday at 8:34 p.m. on charges of disorderly conduct and resisting arrest, police said.

    A police officer working in the area got a report from two students that a woman, later identified as Brinn-Nazzaro, was behaving oddly near the snack bar, said Deputy Chief Patrick Archbald.

    "She was making inappropriate and bizarre comments to people passing her by," Archbald said.

    These included both sexual and anti-Semitic remarks, Archbald said.

    When police officers approached the woman, she told them she could say and do whatever she wanted, continued to make offensive statements toward people and then flailed her arms before being taken into custody, Archbald said.

    At the same time, her son, Benjamin A. Nazzaro, 22, of Crestwood, N.Y., attempted to intervene and allegedly became aggressive toward officers. He was issued a no-trespass order by police. Nazzaro is a vocalist and keyboard player in Bubonic Souls, a Hampshire College-based band which was on campus to perform in the Paper Jam, a battle-of-the-bands event that kicked off Southwest Week 2010. Another member of Bubonic Souls is Rachel Weiss, actress Kathleen Turner's daughter.

    Less than two hours later, when Brinn-Nazzaro's boyfriend came to the UMass police station to post bail for her, Nazzaro was riding in the boyfriend's vehicle and was placed under arrest on a charge of trespassing, Archbald said.

    - SCOTT MERZBACH

    Source - http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/04/16...d-battle-bands
    And this is just the latest example.

    The 1A has never been without constraint and condition.
    Any thought otherwise would be false as related to law and enforcement, as this mom has learned the hard way.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #7
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    I remember many years ago a case being dismissed where a person said FU to the LEO. The reason the judge dismissed it was he said in the context it was used, it was a political statement protected by free speech.

    If that guy wants to use that kind of language in front of his kids, he's entitled to do so. Like I said, it doesn't excuse the guy being an a--hole, but LEO's shouldn't be able to lock people up over it either. LEOs should consider it part of the job. If this guy was in a mall flipping people off and throwing cuss words around that's another thing.
    http://www.saf.org/ --- Fighting for American's Gun Rights
    http://GeorgiaCarry.org --- Fighting for Georgian's Gun Rights.
    http://Georgiapacking.org --- Discussion of Georgia Gun Laws.

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    It doesnt matter what comes out of this mouth as long as it isnt spit. His finger can do what it wants as long as it doesn't connect.

    This is free speech. Now this doesn't mean that the LEO doesn't have the ability to wait till he is off shift and follow this scumbag into an ally and let em have a 5 finger black out.

    Is it right that he did what he did..... YES because it is a RIGHT.
    Is it morally right what he did, NO, I think cops do not deserve that kind of disrespect.

    When I see LEOs I always thank them for their service to the local community. And they always have a big smile and want to shake my hand. My father is a retired deputy.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    I'm a retired LEO, and you would be surprised at what we put up with. I would have let this one roll off.

  11. #10
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    There is a difference between free speech and fighting words/gestures. The f word (and similar) directed at another is designed to provoke. The finger is designed to provoke.

    I'm not willing to countenance people using these in public or directly at police or public officials.

    Let the judges do as they might, but there is still nothing OK about these words and gestures.

    I have no problem with a disorderly conduct charge being brought against someone who crosses the lines of ordinary civility with these words and gestures.

    As far as I'm concerned, if it isn't good enough for the family atmosphere here at DC, it isn't good enough for public utterance.

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