Federal Code 18 USC § 930

This is a discussion on Federal Code 18 USC § 930 within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I often travel Highway 441 here in South Florida passing the Cemeteries - South Florida National Cemetery - Burial and Memorial Benefits . I noticed ...

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Thread: Federal Code 18 USC § 930

  1. #1
    Member Array Eagle Eye's Avatar
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    Federal Code 18 USC § 930

    I often travel Highway 441 here in South Florida passing the Cemeteries - South Florida National Cemetery - Burial and Memorial Benefits . I noticed the other day there is a sign at the entrance quoting "18 USC § 930 Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities". Now I'm sure there are tons of "thoughts" (<--- read opinions) on this but I would like to know how you would deal with it while attending a funeral event seeing as there is only a couple "buildings". The code states "in" federal facilities as well as "lawful purposes" (930(d)(3)exceptions). 1:Under the exceptions rule do you think a permit holder is or should be exempted and 2: Do you agree or disagree with this law as it would pertain to National Cemeteries
    Socialism tries to give the slave all the advantages of his security together with the benefits of freedom, and, in the process, destroys both the free and the enslaved.

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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    My opinion:

    If I were attending an event, and such sign was posted at the ENTRANCE to a federal owned facility, I would consider entering the gates, not just a building, as entering into federal owned property.

    I would base my decision whether or not to attend on this opinion.

    I don't like it but it is apparently the federal law. Unlike public businesses, who post such signs, the federal law holds weight.

    My thoughts are we, as citizens, should be able to be armed no matter where we are.
    “I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.”
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    Member Array Eagle Eye's Avatar
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    At this particular facility there is no gate and only a couple buildings. One or two outside funeral cabanas also present. Do they qualify as buildings? I agree we as free citizens should be able to carry anywhere anytime but government has squashed some of those freedoms.
    Socialism tries to give the slave all the advantages of his security together with the benefits of freedom, and, in the process, destroys both the free and the enslaved.

    R.J. Rushdoony

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    Member Array Billspider's Avatar
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    Two weeks ago I talked my wife into going to an outdoor range with me at Calverton NY. She asked if we could stop at the National Cemetery at Calverton to pay respects to her father, who was a Korean War Vet. The entrance to the cemetery had a sign posted that stated no guns past this point. We were very disappointed.

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    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    1. I don't think the law exempts permit holders, but IANAL

    2. I don't like the law, but would err on the side of caution. Wouldn't carry there.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    I would say no.

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    Where TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930 subseciton (a) says:
    Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    There is an exemption in =(d) Subsection (a)
    shall not apply to—
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
    And a clarification of the term, "Federal facility":
    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
    So this law does not prohibit the honest carrying for the purpose of self defense into a Federal Cemetary ground as long as one avoids entering a "Federal facility" thereon as above defined.
    Pay your respects.
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    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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    Member Array Eagle Eye's Avatar
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    I'm leaning towards the way you are thinking Pistology. I think this is one of those gray areas where someone could become a test case good or bad depending where you live. Anyone else care to comment? Mr. Buckley you have more insight as to how the law might cover this.
    Socialism tries to give the slave all the advantages of his security together with the benefits of freedom, and, in the process, destroys both the free and the enslaved.

    R.J. Rushdoony

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    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billspider View Post
    Two weeks ago I talked my wife into going to an outdoor range with me at Calverton NY. She asked if we could stop at the National Cemetery at Calverton to pay respects to her father, who was a Korean War Vet. The entrance to the cemetery had a sign posted that stated no guns past this point. We were very disappointed.
    Similar sign posted at Pinelawn National Cemetery. Actually I believe the sign posted says no "weapons" so I'm not even sure if it is lawful to carry a knife on the property.
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    Wrong citation

    See:38 CFR 1.218 - Security and law enforcement at VA facilities. - Code of Federal Regulations - Title 38: Pensions, Bonuses, and Veterans' Relief - vLex

    38 CFR § 1.218§ 1.218 (13)

    (13) Weapons and explosives. No person while on property shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.
    *********************************
    My take:

    Remember is that 18 USC 930 is just one general statute governing federal facilities.

    Nearly all the various agency regulations are far more stringent than the statutory Section 930 (regulations generally applying beyond statutorily defined facilities to land of the agency, etc). These "regulations" may not be statutes, however that can have criminal penalties.

    So just like VCDL and others (mostly State or local based RKBA organizations, at first) took on NPS Reg. 2.4 and eventually got it repealed, all these other little agency regulations remain valid until repealed by Congress or the agency itself.

    Statutorily, generally a Federal "facility" is a building, etc., not including the real estate surrounding it. However, this issue is not settled in the eyes of the government. The recent post office conviction (for a postal regulation violation, not the false title 18 signs they tend to post) for firearm in the "secured" parking lot, as well as the Wolf Trap Filene center/lawn seating determination shows that the feds intends to fight RKBA every step of the way, IMHO.

    I believe that the VA regulation (and most other agency Regs) is/are overreaching. However, I suspect that a court will support the government in any challenge to it. IMHO, the USPS regulation has a much better chance of falling due to the vague wording, misleading signs and the like.

    By that, I mean that an effort to topple the USPS regulation seem to me to be more likely to secede in -- as we're just seeking to conduct our "official" business with the PO while exercising our rights as citizens.

    OTOH, the VA properties will carry with it a major anti-gun press imprinted stigma "<insert derogatory hoplophobic term here> of us wanting to pack heat at funerals" and other inflammatory language that they tried while opposing the NPS repeal.

    One of the down sides to addressing this issue at this time is that Heller only addressed the keep arms issue, w/ nothing on bearing arms, yet . So, we don't have any hard and fast way to know how a court will rule on the issue of bearing arms -- i.e., carry. There are some cases in the lower courts, which might give us a better footing to address infringement of bearing arms, before long.

    As always YMMV.
    Last edited by DaveH; April 19th, 2010 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Added "my take:...."
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    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Nearly all the various agency regulations are far more stringent than the statutory Section 930 (regulations generally applying beyond statutorily defined facilities to land of the agency, etc). These "regulations" may not be statutes, however that can have criminal penalties.
    IANAL, but there's the rub!!

    Laws are written by legislatures.

    Regulations are written by bureaucrats as to how to carry out the enforcement of the above-mentioned laws.

    It is my understanding that under both Federal and state (where circumstances are similar) Law, Regulations are NOT legally allowed to go beyond the boundaries of the underlying law.

    Regulations are indeed written intentionally to violate this restriction and they are often-times upheld by judges who "legislate from the bench" . . . thus the risk in abiding by the law when it is clear that the regulations do indeed violate the intent and wording of the underlying law.

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