Ex-Army Officer: Nation's gun cancer spreads

This is a discussion on Ex-Army Officer: Nation's gun cancer spreads within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Holger Originally Posted by 120mm Seriously - There are more anti-gun folks among the Officer ranks of the military than probably anywhere ...

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Thread: Ex-Army Officer: Nation's gun cancer spreads

  1. #31
    Member Array MSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holger View Post
    Originally Posted by 120mm
    Seriously - There are more anti-gun folks among the Officer ranks of the military than probably anywhere else you'll find. As a Commissioned Officer, I find my "peers" to be nearly universally ignorant and anti-curious about learning about guns and nearly universally FOR controlling people in every aspect of their lives.

    Military Officers are generally among the least freedom loving people you will ever meet. Which bodes poorly for the republic, I fear.
    Odd. My experience in fighter squadrons the past 15 years is the exact opposite. The overwhelming majority of the officers I fly with own guns, from handguns to ARs to shotguns.

    I'm quite concerned about a military officer that speaks in such broad generalizations. Perhaps your branch of service has a problem, or merely it's just the ones you've served with. Or maybe it's just you, I don't know. I'd say your experience is probably extremely limited in scope, and I'd be cautious about applying gross generalizations across the officer corps.


    Perhaps it's a generational issue; I don't know.
    I've been a Commisioned Officer in the US Army for over 8 years now, and would say, in my purely unscientific and anecdotal observation, that at least 75% of my peers own hand guns, and carry wherever it is legal to do so.
    When I say peers, I'm referring to O-1 to O-4 ranks (I'm on the high end of O-3 now). With the more senior guys, it may be different.
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    "Even the treacherous, 27-word version of the amendment with which we contend today..."

    Whatever oath he took, he clearly does not respect our current constitution! How can you refer to our constitution as Treacherous, unless you are British? And yes, I'm sure he is qualified to tell the Supreme Court that they made an erroneous ruling. Not to say I agree with everything they do, but really? He thinks his statement that they were wrong just makes it so? Wow, this guy is quite a specimen.
    Walk softly ...

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Walsh
    Before the advent of firearms, becoming dangerous meant years of training, if not membership in a warrior caste.
    Huh...WHAT you talkin' 'bout Willis?!

    Wrong.

    Before firearms men had and still have all around the world access to all manner of weaponry including household items as weaponized.
    He wants to talk about and cite history...Then he needs to get historical.

    Bad people and good people both were openly making use of knives, daggers, swords, bats & clubs, pikes, spikes, maces, chains and the Chinese (Kung Fu) as well as Japanese (Okinawan Karate) as well as the Maori people too weaponizing otherwise normal daily tools including farming implements (rakes, shovels, hoe, etc.) as for purpose of defense against attackers who were 'by law' wielding militarized weapons by right and command of overseers and overlords above them.

    Before the USA was even 'discovered' (re-discovered) by Columbus the use of _TOOLS_ of all sort for sake of defense and offense was quite the norm for human cultures worldwide...Regardless of government and so called legal rule of a given time (dictatorships and monarchys).

    The authors focus is clearly one dimensional.
    He pays only attention the crime as associated to civilian ownership of firearms.
    While wholly ignoring the incidences of successful civilian defense of ones self, community and _government_ by way of the gun for good use.

    Further as related to the Founders he also ignores or maybe does not know the _fact_ that the founders were motivated by borrowed from and endorsed same as a precept looking to the Swiss for direction.

    Guns, Crime, and the Swiss
    by Stephen P. Halbrook, Ph.D., J.D.

    Shorter versions of this article were published in 1999 in the Wall Street Journal on June 3 (European edition) as "Armed to the Teeth, and Free" and on June 10 (American edition) as "Where Kids and Guns Do Mix."

    ...American interest in the Swiss did not begin with John McPhree's prize-winning essay La Place de la Concorde Suisse. In 1768, as conflict with the Crown worsened, the colonists called for the strengthening of the militia, so that "this country will have a better security against the calamities of war than any other in the world, Switzerland alone excepted." By the time the new Constitution was being debated in 1787, John Adams wrote a treatise which praised the democratic Swiss Cantons, where every man was entitled to vote on matters of state and to bear arms. The famous orator Patrick Henry praised the Swiss for maintaining their neutrality and independence from the great monarchies, all without "a mighty and splendid President" or a standing army: "Let us follow their example, and be equally happy."

    The Swiss influence was partly responsible for the adoption of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which provides: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This has become the orphan of the Bill of Rights which some love to hate.

    When the first U.S. Congress met and turned to defense measures in 1791, Representative Jackson argued: "The inhabitants of Switzerland emancipated themselves by the establishment of a militia, which finally delivered them from the tyranny of their lords." A law was passed requiring every able-bodied citizen to provide himself with a firearm and enroll in the militia, and it stayed on the books for over a century...

    Source - Guns, Crime, and the Swiss - by Stephen P. Halbrook
    So to this individual it matters not that he served four years or forty as among our armed forces. Nor does it matter that he has been trained nor trained and become 'expert' on any weapon system what so ever.
    As well it does not matter what his title might be or have been.

    What matters at the end of the day is that he has the right by birth of being a living being to defend himself, ensure his own peace, and to do same toward his children and home.
    This is not just a right afforded to free men or singularly unique to America and Americans. This is a right that is open and equal to all living beings as within this existence. Period. Be they man or beast living on, above, aside or below the seas, sky and land.

    It is singularly by governance and from that the contemptuous hearts & minds of men who have through all of human history made attempt to limit if not eliminate the freedoms of all men, women and children. Why?
    So that they can be better controlled, abused, taken advantage of and generally for purpose to de-humanize them as to the point of even referring to them as a matter of normality to being sub-human and as "beasts".

    Any person of any biological ethnicity, any cultural ethnicity and any national background including that of the Americas should know the above as being a true reflection, in whole!, of the historical FACTS as related to men, malice, arms and rights.

    As a free man I will fight to defend my rights.
    I too no oath and swore no allegiance to do so as this gentleman did. But that is only because I was not allowed to do so by refusal of admission for reason of items out of my own control (health). Many others have been of same like me.
    We are no less a person nor a citizen than is he, the 'Expert'.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    I spent 20+ years on active duty in the US Army. Anti gunners come from all walks of life. Military officers are no more biased against guns than shopkeepers, machinists, engineers, the police or burger burners.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holger View Post
    My experience as a 15 yr commissioned officer (both active and full-time Guard) certainly don't mirror yours. I don't want to (and won't) turn this into an Army-USAF peeing contest regarding 2A sentiment, but I am curious why the opinions seem so different. I can think of, off-hand, at least ten O's I work and fly with that have CHPs and another ten that hunt or shoot regularly.

    And we certainly don't hate freedom. Maybe Army officers don't trust the enlisted force with guns. And, with at least TWO former enlisted soldiers on this thread insinuating it's okay to kill officers with whom they disagree politically, maybe I can't blame them!

    You've had quite the career...well done.
    On the other hand, I've met officers (peers) who were either gun owners or gun wardens.

    The gun owners shoot regularly...3x-4x a month, carry (off-base), and generally pay attention to what is going on around them (these people are the extreme minority). These folks are also looking forward to re-qual (the shooting part, not the 3-4 hour mind-numbing "this is where the bullet comes out" lesson)

    The gun warden have guns...locked away in a safe and check on them every couple of years to make sure they haven't escaped. The reason they check them every couple of years is because they have a PCS coming up and need the serial numbers. The thought of carrying a gun while at home is a foreign concept.

    Then there is the 3rd group who hate (yes, hate) guns...complain about spending the day at the range...and then when deployed, leave the gun in their billet because they feel it is a burden to carry and are perfectly happy to have someone else carry a gun for them (or defend them)...clean it just after the qual and then clean it again (4-6months, sometimes 12 months later) before they turn it back into the armory. They look at me sideways when I talk about VA and their gun laws and concealed carry...

    The last two groups are the majority of people I've met in my 16 years between Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan...

    ETA: The OP's author was active duty from 1989(ish) to 1993(ish)---the world has changed quite a bit since then...his frame of reference to the military is 17 years old and has since then been in the ivory tower in New Jersey (not quite the bastion of the 2A in the last 70 years). IMO, he is trying to legitimize his untenable position with his "experience" in Hawaii. Hey L-T....we got this.....go write a sonnet or something. Adults are talking here.
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  7. #36
    Member Array Spike66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    ...

    I get tired of this repeated ignorance of the definition of "militia" in the 1700s and its foundation in an armed and prepared citizenry, not a full or part time body of paid volunteers.

    ...
    This is the key IMHO to the problem with most 2A discussions. People just don't realize that Militia does not mean the same thing now as it did over 200 years ago.

    In modern times it has even taken on a negative meaning which is unfortunate.

    - Spike

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    4 years? Well thank you for your service Lt...

    Is there a wonder why he's still not in? I'm sure he heard during his "years" of service the following words...and they apply today..."Go sit in the corner L-T....we got this....can you round up a 100yds of flightline?"



    You know, I was about to disagree with you....until I read your whole post...

    But I have to agree with your words "universally ignorant and anti-curious...universally FOR controlling people". I can't tell you how many people I've had to correct/argue with in regards to the 2A and gun ownership. THEY got freaked out because they saw someone OCing (in VA)...then I explained the law to them. They were amazed that someone could just buy a gun and carry it (openly)...."why no training? Because in NY...." (and this is when the fight started )

    It comes from the mentality that officers are responsible for everything that happens on their watch...that the only way to prevent mishaps is through training.....hello? Friday afternoon "safety briefs"? Thus, if you did not training your people to "don't drink and drive" then it becomes a leadership failure to "take care of troops"....ignorant, I know. But if you did do everything you're "supposed" to do...then you're off the hook (CYA mentality).

    Some still believe that only military and police should have guns...not sure how much of that is a product of their upbringing....or influenced through the military. I do have a tendency to get on my soapbox and discuss the freedoms we are defending...the Constitution we swore to "support and defend"..."without mental reservation or purpose of evasion"--this part I use to have them question themselves as to why they joined and swore an oath. You don't defend the parts you like and the parts you don't.....you defend the entire Constitution. Most don't like to hear that...I don't care.

    So, in light of the former Lt's opinion, I wonder how he feels about the oath he took?
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  9. #38
    Member Array MSGTTBAR's Avatar
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    Gun Control - The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.
    Life is too short to be serious!

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike66 View Post
    This is the key IMHO to the problem with most 2A discussions. People just don't realize that Militia does not mean the same thing now as it did over 200 years ago.
    Agreed.

    - Thomas Jefferson
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #40
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    There will always be sheep like Mr. Walsh and there will always be wolves to prey on them. I hope for his sake if he ever needs a sheepdog there will be one to pull his fluffy butt from the jaws of the preditor but somehow I doubt that will be the case and he will become just another victim of his own self delusions about the world and those who inhabit it.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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  12. #41
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    I am a civilian contractor in Ramadi Iraq; recently the Marines moved out and the Army came in. The pussification under the Army is dramatic!!! With the Marines here attacks were almost unheard of; since the Army came in I personally have heard 3 rockets pass overhead and the other night multiple car bombs went off in the city.

    The difference in the articles between the Army Doggie officer and the Marine officer is about what I would expect. (I am a former jarhead BTW)

    Back in the 80s I ran the central office of a small alternative long-distance phone company after the break up of ATT we were a "reseller" we sent our calls out over other companies long haul facilities. Two guys I regularly had dealings with at these transmission companies were prior military officers, one Army the other Marines. When I was visiting their facilities in "the big city" 50 miles north of me I made the same offer to both "Let me know next time you come down and set aside some time in the afternoon and I'll break out some of my toys and we can go to the range for a couple hours and then I'll buy dinner at (a fine local steakhouse).

    Ex-Army "I haven't touched a weapon since I left the army, and I do not ever intend to again."

    Former Marine "OOHH what-cha got??? I have a couple I'll bring as well. Does the range have a good rifle range or is it only pistol??? I have a National Match M-1A I'd love to knock the cobwebs out of."

  13. #42
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    It is not a mystery, that throughout history, men have pimped and pumped up and promoted their military achievements, ranks and records for their own personal, profitable and political benefit; even if it means being or becoming pet PAC-rat media whores who bore most of us and make us snore. He has found his niche, his sponsors and his spot; maybe even being paid by tax-exempt anti-gun pimps, with travel and expenses paid, with free but wasted newspaper space and TV time. We have seen these media whores before. Unfortunately, if they are to survive and thrive as officers, they must soon all become political officers to some extent, while figuring out how to get some of that Pentagon-PAC or other PAC-rat pork, of course.

  14. #43
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holger View Post
    My experience as a 15 yr commissioned officer (both active and full-time Guard) certainly don't mirror yours. I don't want to (and won't) turn this into an Army-USAF peeing contest regarding 2A sentiment, but I am curious why the opinions seem so different. I can think of, off-hand, at least ten O's I work and fly with that have CHPs and another ten that hunt or shoot regularly.

    And we certainly don't hate freedom. Maybe Army officers don't trust the enlisted force with guns. And, with at least TWO former enlisted soldiers on this thread insinuating it's okay to kill officers with whom they disagree politically, maybe I can't blame them!

    You've had quite the career...well done.
    I did a straw poll worth nothing with my extremely liberal boss; a female USAF Major, who agrees with you to a large extent. ESPECIALLY among the airplane drivers, gun ownership is very popular among you nasty zoomies...

    Quote Originally Posted by MSteve View Post
    Perhaps it's a generational issue; I don't know.
    I've been a Commisioned Officer in the US Army for over 8 years now, and would say, in my purely unscientific and anecdotal observation, that at least 75% of my peers own hand guns, and carry wherever it is legal to do so.
    When I say peers, I'm referring to O-1 to O-4 ranks (I'm on the high end of O-3 now). With the more senior guys, it may be different.
    I think you'll see that the more senior you get, the more pronounced the "you gotta control everyone's actions at all time" crap becomes. I am also seeing a generation of combat warriors that are O-3 or so who see nothing wrong with carrying a gun.

    However, have you noticed all the mandatory "if you like firearms you are insane and a threat to others" briefings at your unit and commercials on AFN? There is a major campaign going on within the Army to paint gun ownership as a mental disease. I kid you not.

    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I am a civilian contractor in Ramadi Iraq; recently the Marines moved out and the Army came in. The pussification under the Army is dramatic!!! With the Marines here attacks were almost unheard of; since the Army came in I personally have heard 3 rockets pass overhead and the other night multiple car bombs went off in the city.

    The difference in the articles between the Army Doggie officer and the Marine officer is about what I would expect. (I am a former jarhead BTW)

    Back in the 80s I ran the central office of a small alternative long-distance phone company after the break up of ATT we were a "reseller" we sent our calls out over other companies long haul facilities. Two guys I regularly had dealings with at these transmission companies were prior military officers, one Army the other Marines. When I was visiting their facilities in "the big city" 50 miles north of me I made the same offer to both "Let me know next time you come down and set aside some time in the afternoon and I'll break out some of my toys and we can go to the range for a couple hours and then I'll buy dinner at (a fine local steakhouse).

    Ex-Army "I haven't touched a weapon since I left the army, and I do not ever intend to again."

    Former Marine "OOHH what-cha got??? I have a couple I'll bring as well. Does the range have a good rifle range or is it only pistol??? I have a National Match M-1A I'd love to knock the cobwebs out of."
    All doggie officer gigs aside, I would say this is generally accurate, devil dog.

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Every year I get together with current and former Airborne brethren of mine. There is no shortage of weaponry, enthusiasm, or patriotism among us.

    I'm guessing this LT's attitude is a "leg" problem.
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  16. #45
    Member Array Holger's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=120mm;1607034]I I am also seeing a generation of combat warriors that are O-3 or so who see nothing wrong with carrying a gun.


    QUOTE]


    I think this is tremendously healthy for the Army and will serve it well in the future. I'm impressed with the work America's ground forces have done over the past 6-7 years and have a very healthy respect for them.

    As for Big Army going on an anti-gun crusade, can't say I'm surprised. All the services value the personnel they have, and it's a fact of military life that (very) senior officers have a say in how we live. Look at motorcycles...if I'm a commander and don't want my guys killed riding bikes, it's much easier to ban bikes than it is to encourage responsible riding, etc. I guess they're doing the same with guns. It's not right, but it's the path of least resistance, I suppose.

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