These two bills should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Acts"

These two bills should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Acts"

This is a discussion on These two bills should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Acts" within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Written Statement of the Liberty Coalition:On “Terrorists and Guns: The Nature of the Threat and Proposed Reforms” By mostrolenk Created May 4 2010 - 4:46pm ...

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Thread: These two bills should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Acts"

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation These two bills should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Acts"

    Written Statement of the Liberty Coalition:On “Terrorists and Guns: The Nature of the Threat and Proposed Reforms”

    By mostrolenk
    Created May 4 2010 - 4:46pm
    Written Statement of the
    Liberty Coalition

    Aaron Titus
    Privacy Director, Liberty Coalition and
    Attorney, J.C. Neu & Associates


    “Terrorists and Guns:
    The Nature of the Threat and Proposed Reforms”

    Before the

    Senate Committee on Homeland Security and
    Government Affairs

    May 5, 2010

    Liberty Coalition
    722 12th Street, NW, Suite 400
    Washington, DC 2005
    (202) 204-9790
    Liberty Coalition [1]

    Written Statement of the
    Liberty Coalition

    Aaron Titus

    Privacy Director, Liberty Coalition
    Attorney, J.C. Neu & Associates

    before the
    Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs

    Chairman Lieberman, Ranking Member Collins and Members of the Committee.

    The Liberty Coalition (Liberty Coalition [1]) works to organize, support, and coordinate transpartisan public policy activities related to civil liberties and basic rights. We work in conjunction with more than 80 partner organizations from across the political spectrum that are interested in preserving the Bill of Rights, personal autonomy and individual privacy. The Liberty Coalition does not speak on behalf of these organizations, and my testimony today may not reflect the position of any single Coalition Partner.

    We are saddened, alarmed, and angered by gun violence and terrorist acts, such as the incident in Times Square a few days ago. We can all agree that the world would be better if we each beat our proverbial swords into plow-shares and spears into pruning-hooks. But that day has not yet arrived. Guns and other weapons do exist, and managing them is a matter of public concern. Reasonable minds may and do come to differing conclusions about gun control, gun safety, and whether gun ownership makes people safer. The Liberty Coalition takes no official position on "gun control" per se. However, we are very alarmed at legislative attempts, though well-intentioned, which strip away individual Constitutional protections.

    Today's hearing examines two bills, S.1317 "Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2009" and S.2820, "Preserving Records of Terrorists & Criminal Transactions Act of 2009" ("PROTECT Act of 2009"). In reality, these two bills should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Act," and the "National Firearm Registry Act," respectively. Collectively these bills strip citizens of their enumerated Constitutional Right to Bear Arms without any meaningful due process, and create a national firearms registry. The same Constitutional Due Process provided by the 5th and 14th Amendments that prevents Congress from incarcerating a citizen based on mere suspicion also prevents Congress from revoking a citizen's Second Amendment right to bear arms. For that and other reasons, the Liberty Coalition opposes these bills.

    More importantly, today's discussion misses the point entirely. This committee should not spend time debating whether to take away Terrorists' guns, bombs, cell phones, cars, or other instruments of terrorism. If a person is a dangerous terrorist, then he should be thrown in jail. As a felon, convicted terrorists should not, and cannot under current law, own guns.

    The only things a real, convicted terrorist should own are an orange jumpsuit and a pair of leg chains, but S.1317 is based on the assumption that all individuals on terrorist watch lists are terrorists. Unfortunately, the details of terror watch lists are kept secret within the Executive Branch, and it is impossible to tell whether the assumption is correct. If it is true, that is if each person on a terror watch list is really a dangerous terrorist as this bill suggests, then this committee should stop talking about taking away terrorists' guns, and start throwing each and every person on a terror watch list in jail, effective immediately.

    How S.1317 Works

    A person may be added to one of more than a dozen Federal watch lists, tip-off lists or terrorist watch lists based on "reasonable suspicion" of terrorist activity. Other reasons for adding a person include , mistake or misidentification, or if a terrorist steals a person's identity. An innocent citizen placed on the list will have no administrative recourse to ensure that he or she is removed from a list.

    When a citizen of the United States, fully protected by the Constitution applies to purchase a firearm, his or her personal information is run through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and the name is run against several databases to ensure that he is not a convicted felon, drug addict, fugitive, or has some other monitored restriction or legal disability. In addition, the person's name will be run against one or more terrorist watch lists. If the system returns an initial match, the result will be delayed, and NICS personnel will investigate further. If S.1317 becomes law and the match is confirmed, then NICS will return a "Denied" signal to the gun dealer, and the purchase will be denied. Furthermore, the personal information of the individual will be kept on file indefinitely.

    Under current law, a citizen has the right to know exactly why he was denied the purchase of a firearm. With this information, the person can correct the record or appeal the decision. However, Under S.1317, the person will only receive "actual notice of the Attorney General's determination," if the Attorney General determines that such notice would not likely "compromise national security." Due to the secret nature of the watch lists, the Attorney General may determine that simply tipping off the person that they are on a terror watch list may compromise national security, thus rendering the notice clause illusory. In that case, the person would receive a "Denied" signal from NICS, with no further information about the reason for the denial, nor with any recourse to obtain the reason for denial.

    The citizen may never know why he or she was denied a firearms permit, if the Attorney General determines that the mere disclosure of the determination may compromise national security. The citizen may ask why he or she was denied, but the Attorney General is not required to answer or correct erroneous information within the system. Consequently, the citizen will be unable mount a meaningful appeal to the Attorney General's decision. Further, even if the Attorney General explains the reason for the denial, the citizen would have no way to know that their right to appeal expires after 60 days after the notice.
    Assuming that the citizen appeals the decision in court, things only get harder and more confusing. First, the citizen must rely on summaries or a redacted version of the documents upon which the Attorney General made his decision. Neither the citizen nor his attorney has a right to see or rebut the evidence presented against him. Not even the court may consider the unredacted documents to determine whether the Attorney General acted reasonably in denying the firearms permit.

    A citizen will lose his appeal if the Attorney General can prove, by a preponderance of the evidence, not that the individual poses a risk, or that the person is a terrorist, or even that the person is under investigation; rather, the Attorney General must only demonstrate that the person has been placed a terror watch list.

    Once that has been proven, a process which affords the citizen no due process, no right to appeal, nor guarantees any reasonable notice or information to the actual fact that the citizen is on a terror watch list, the appeal is over and the citizen loses his Second Amendment Right to Bear Arms. The individual will not have a chance to introduce evidence of mistaken identity, abuse of Executive discretion or mount any other meaningful defense.
    In other words, S.1317 allows the Attorney General to unilaterally revoke a person's Second Amendment Right to Bear Arms by a bald assertion of terrorist inclinations, founded on "suspicion" and "reasonable belief," thus rendering the notion of a citizen's right to appeal illusory and impotent.

    Effect on Gun Dealers

    The bill also reduces Due Process protections for gun dealers. S. 1317, strips gun dealers of their right to appeal a revoked license in court, and replaces it with the right to notice and hearing before the Attorney General.

    Terror Watch Lists

    Need for Secret Government Investigations
    The nature of criminal and terrorist investigations necessitates that certain information be kept confidential. The Liberty Coalition does not oppose confidential criminal and terrorist investigations, or even targeted, focused lists of individuals of interest. But what S.1317 misunderstands is that "investigation" is not "guilt," and "suspicion" is not "conviction."
    The existing lists upon which NICS draws are fundamentally different from terror watch lists. The NICS system already checks the background of gun purchasers against lists of "felons, fugitives, unlawful drug users, and aliens illegally or unlawfully in the United States." What makes these lists effective is that they are based on appropriate and transparent legal standards of due process. In theory, denying a firearm to a person who appears on a list of "convicted terrorists" would not violate due process. However, revoking Second Amendment rights based solely on a list of "suspected terrorists" certainly does violate due process.

    Weaknesses of Terror Watch Lists

    The weaknesses of terror watch lists are numerous and well-documented. The ACLU has entered a statement before this committee which explains in great detail the design flaws, excessive error rates, rapid expansion, and other problems of existing watch lists. I commend to the Committee the ACLU's examination of this important issue.
    Watch lists are growing at an unprecedented rate. In January 2005 the most updated version of the Terrorist Screening Database (TSDB) had 237,615 active records, representing approximately 170,000 unique individuals. By 2009 that number had grown to 1.1 million identities and approximately 400,000 unique individuals. The lack of transparency leaves the public to wonder who these people might be, whether one out of every 750 people in the United States is a suspected terrorist, or whether the drastic increase in the database is due to poor design and over-collection.

    Bloated watch lists create more false positives, unnecessarily impinge on civil liberties, and have a corrosive effect on security. Focused watch lists can be highly effective security and investigatory tools.
    The Liberty Coalition is concerned about the burden that poorly managed watch lists put on ordinary Citizens. Government and press reports are replete with examples of innocent individuals whose lives have been affected or ruined when their names are placed on a secret watch list.

    Due Process and Redress

    Government authorities must be able to maintain the secrecy and confidentiality of investigations. But with these substantial new powers, adequate Constitutional protections must be built in to address errors and abuses, which will inevitably occur. Among these is an administrative process to be removed from a watch list, a process which does not currently exist. No statute or regulation provides a path for more than the estimated 400,000 individuals who are on a watch list.

    Inappropriate Uses for Terror Watch Lists

    Terror Watch lists, by their nature, are designed to be over-broad. A name on a terror watch list is evidence of a government interest in an individual or an investigation, not proof of terrorism. The bald allegation of a suspicion of terrorist sympathies is insufficient evidence to overcome an individual's interest in their Right to Bear Arms. Such a showing would not come close to overcoming even the most basic level of scrutiny.
    I understand the inevitability, and the need for confidential government investigations, but an investigation, or a mere "suspicion" as this bill puts it, cannot be grounds for infringing upon or revoking the Constitutionally enumerated Right to Bear Arms. Suspicion is not a conviction.

    Second Amendment

    Regardless of one's position on gun safety and gun control, the Supreme Court has unambiguously ruled that the Right to Bear Arms is an individual right. As with all Constitutionally protected rights, the Second Amendment is not absolute, and the government may regulate the Right to Bear Arms in a number of circumstances, including prohibiting the carrying of weapons "by felons and the mentally ill, …in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or … [requiring] conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."
    The recent Supreme Court decision on the Second Amendment, District of Columbia v. Heller does not establish a level of scrutiny for evaluating Second Amendment restrictions. However, "The very enumeration of the right takes out of the hands of government – even the Third Branch of Government – the power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insisting upon." Other enumerated individual rights, such as First Amendment Speech protections are subject to at least intermediate scrutiny, which requires that a restriction on that right be based upon "substantial evidence."
    S.1317 would not stand up to intermediate scrutiny, because a mere allegation of a suspicion of terrorist sympathies cannot constitute evidence "substantial" enough to overcome an individual's interest in their Right to Bear Arms.

    Due Process
    Current Law

    Based on the title of S.1317, one would think that convicted terrorists were allowed to own guns. However, nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, "convicted felons [including terrorists] , fugitives, unlawful drug users, and aliens illegally or unlawfully in the United States" are prohibited by federal law from receiving firearms. Current law recognizes that merely appearing on a terror watch list is not proof of terrorist activities. Consequently, individuals are not prevented from owning, purchasing, or carrying a gun because they appear on a watch list.

    Names are added to terror watch lists with a "better safe than sorry" attitude, and NICS background checks already flag individuals who appear on terror watch lists, giving investigators additional time to research whether the transaction should be allowed. "During presale screening of prospective firearms purchasers, NICS searches terrorist watch list records generated by numerous federal agencies, including the Departments of Justice, State, and Homeland Security."

    S.1317 Due Process

    The 5th and 14th Amendments guarantee Due Process of law before an individual liberty interest may be taken away by the Federal or State governments. In our adversarial legal system, the Constitution has always tied the hands of well-meaning government magistrates. The Bill of Rights is highly suspicious of unfettered government power. S.1317, as currently written, demonstrates a basic distrust of the courts and strips away all meaningful Due Process.
    While the bill implements a key GAO recommendation that the Attorney General issue guidelines for exercising this new authority, S.1317 contains so many flaws that any guidelines would be like giving swimming lessons in a rip tide.

    Denying the enumerated Constitutional Right to Bear Arms based on a secret list of suspect people is Constitutionally repugnant. The discretionary power to revoke the Second Amendment requires checks, balances, due process, and a meaningful opportunity for redress. S.1317 and S.2820 lack such due process.

    In order to satisfy Due Process protections, any bill which limits the Second Amendment must, at a minimum provide: an adversarial proceeding before a neutral arbiter, through which a person may challenge the Attorney General's determination to deny a firearm sale, as well as their inclusion on a watch list; access to and a right to challenge the information on which the decision is based, where the arbiter is unrestricted in the evidence which he or she may consider; and a meaningful administrative procedure for removal from watch lists.

    National Firearms Registry

    S.2820, "Preserving Records of Terrorists & Criminal Transactions Act of 2009" ("PROTECT Act of 2009"), makes two changes to federal law. First, it requires officials to retain personal information of gun license applicants who appear on a terror watch list for a minimum of 10 years. Second, and more importantly, S.2820 substantially weakens privacy protections currently built into NICS, creating a defacto National Firearms Registry.
    As stated in a 2005 GAO report, "...the purpose of NICS is to determine the lawfulness of proposed gun transactions, not to provide law enforcement agents with intelligence about lawful gun purchases by persons of investigative interest," but S.2820 changes that. The new law states, "If receipt of a firearm would not violate subsection (g) or (n) or State law, the system shall— … not less than 180 days after the transfer is allowed, destroy all records of the system with respect to the call (other than the identifying number and the date the number was assigned) and all records of the system relating to the person or the transfer.

    This means that all personal information of each and every law-abiding citizen who purchases a gun will be saved in a government database for an indefinite period of time, and at least 6 months.

    S.2820 disingenuously purports to target terrorists, but in fact is designed to be a National Firearms Registry, generating just 200 new records on "suspected terrorists" annually, and more than 14 million new records on law-abiding citizens each year. Once collected, a federal database will retain all personal information, including name, address, social security number (if given), phone number, etc. regarding every legal gun purchase by every law-abiding citizen in the country for at least six months. The information may be used for investigative or other purposes, with no legal requirement to ever delete the information.

    The law presents other problems, too. For example, the law provides no notice to the gun purchaser that their personal information is being captured and stored by the Federal Government. The law also makes it unclear whether local gun dealers are now authorized to store sensitive personal information, and under what conditions.
    At the very least, S.2820 should be amended to notify each gun purchaser that their personal information will be stored for not less than 6 months in a national gun owner database, that it may be used for any purpose, may be stored in any unsecure warehouse or office desk, and may be accessed and referenced by any person, or potentially placed on a public website.


    Today's debate on whether to take terrorists' guns away misses the point. If a person is a dangerous terrorist, then the Congress should throw them in jail. If everyone on the terror watch list is really a dangerous terrorist as S.1317 asserts, then this committee should introduce legislation to throw each and every person on the terror watch list in jail. But Constitutional due process prohibits incarceration based on mere suspicion. And the Constitution also won't let Congress take away an individual's Second Amendment rights based on mere suspicion.

    The logical underpinnings S.1317 dictate that other Constitutionally enumerated rights could be annulled by a simple assertion of terrorist activities. Such legislation might provide that, in addition to disarming people on terror watch lists, the Attorney General would have discretion to prevent anyone on a terror watch list from making inappropriate public speeches, participating in dangerous religious activities or unauthorized terror-related demonstrations. To ensure that people on watch lists and their lawyers do not abuse the court system, anyone on a terror watch list could be denied the right against self incrimination, as well as a right to counsel. To protect national security, sensitive evidence and witnesses would remain secret. If the trial of a citizen on the terror watch list is thrown out on a technicality, the Attorney General would have the right to bring the charges repeatedly, until he or she can secure a conviction.

    Terrorist watch lists are fundamentally different from lists of convicts, people adjudicated to be addicted to drugs, illegal aliens, or similar groups. Any type of secret list which is used as prima facia proof of guilt, and deprives a citizen of a Constitutionally enumerated right without due process of law is unconstitutional.
    In short, S.1317 should be re-named the "Gun Owners Are Probably Terrorists Act," because it gives the Attorney General the discretion to deny someone the enumerated Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, based on "suspicion" and "belief" of terrorist inclinations. In addition, S.1317 would turn NICS into a defacto National Firearm Registry. It will collect detailed personal information like name, address, phone number, social security number for every person who applies for a gun permit, with no requirement to ever delete the information.
    The Liberty Coalition respectfully urges this committee to reject S.1317 and S.2820.

    "War on Terror" - 722 12th Street, NW Suite 400 - Washington DC 20005
    Information and action items on the Liberty Coalition website should not be taken as an endorsement by any partner organization unless explicitly stated as such.

    Source URL: Written Statement of the Liberty Coalition:On ?Terrorists and Guns: The Nature of the Threat and Proposed Reforms? | Liberty Coalition
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 28 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Patron Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    This is no different that Salem witch mentality without the immediate executions of course. That could come in the next set of bills.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #3
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Don't even get me started.

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  5. #4
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    This letter should be easier to read for our "representatives" and "senators"...versus the bills they DON'T read....

    Maybe these "congressmen" should be placed on a terror watch list (maybe Ted Kennedy is still on one?) and see how it feels.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Don't even get me started.

    I don't want to be kicked off the forum, but I will go so far as to say this.

    We are clearly being governed against the will of the people. For all practical purposes, Congress has been, and currently is non-responsive to their constituents wishes and demands.

    And all the time and effort the Liberty Coalition put forth in this document and presentation likely fell on some deaf ears.

    I will stipulate not the entire committee... Lieberman is pretty strong on the Constitution and Susan Collins is somewhat weak, but likely stand for the right thing, but others on the committee, I'm not sure about. Certainly a lot more deaf ears if it goes higher up, beyond the committee.
    Semper Fi

    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #6
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I love the title of this post and how they actually wrote that into the letter. It made me laugh. The sad part is that some people will scoff at the "extremism" implied by that statement saying they are exagerating and grandstanding, and others simply just agree with it.
    Walk softly ...

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    I'm going to play devil's advocate here and explain how we need to put those 2 bills on the books right now!!!

    .... Hmmm.... errmmmm.... ...ow it's hurting my head......uuuhhh..... ..... aaahhh....errr..... ....*grone*.... ow ow ow.... .....
    I got nothing.... nevermind....

    All kidding aside...Redundant laws like the ones described in the article are to make it easier for government to skirt around your rights and take them away.

    Pretty soon you will see a "1-800-datguy-iza-terrorist" report hot line great fun! prank your neighbors and friends! The FBI shows up at their house and takes their guns, gasoline cans, car, mobile and shoes while placing an e-collar on their neck....

    sorry I got carried away again
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  9. #8
    Member Array db4usa's Avatar
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    I say that givien the recent events in NYC, that we ban Pathfinders as they are potential terrorist weapons. (sarcasm here)
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  10. #9
    Member Array CenterOfMass's Avatar
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    I'm thinking - just a thought here: if the AG suspects a person is a terrorist, then ARREST them, try them, throw them in jail!

    We don't need to pass a law that says the government can remove a person's rights simply for being suspected as a "threat"!

    Are Tea-Party members next on the list that a non-elected official defines as "terrorists"?
    EDC - S&W M&P .45

    "The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take." Thomas Jefferson

  11. #10
    Member Array Doctor's Avatar
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    Simple. Just get NRA rolls and transfer to Terror Watch List. Problem solved.

    I joke, but I wonder if that's already happening. Big Brother, anyone?
    Glock 36 with Lasermax / Glock 23 / Glock 21. Ruger SP101. Taurus 85.

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  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    As far as I know the NRA isn't required to give out a member list.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array BlueNinjaGo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    The only things a real, convicted terrorist should own are an orange jumpsuit and a pair of leg chains...
    Eh... I disagree... But then again, I support the Death Penalty.

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